Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Variety of experience
| Variety of experience |
Mon, 30 January 2006 13:29  |
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 Kelzar |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 112
Registered: January 2006
Location: Ohio, US | |
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I really like the concept of victory/alliance conditions being set by previous occurances of the game.
Here is an idea along those lines, one that I think will allow novice players to play in a game alongside high caliber veterans and have a realistic hope of having serious impact on the game. Please give feedback and show me where this idea could potentially have fatal flaws.
Balance of Power
Large Packed Universe
12 players
AccBBS
Very limited PPS (I'll explain how later)
Phase I. Is anybody out there?
2400-2430
NO alliances or tech trading (yet).
Econ building and minor defensive skirmishes.
2430 Rule. Ships outfitted with torpedoes, beam weapons, bombs or terraformers are considered offensively capable ships. Offensively Capable Ships are only allowed to orbit planets that you had population on the PREVIOUS YEAR. As AR viral colonizer pods need to visit an empty planet in order to populate it, they are therefore exempt from the 2430 rule. SD mine layers are not considered OCS, you can build them, park them anywhere you'd like but you CANNOT lay minefields prior to 2430. As PP mineral packets are likely to be intercepted, no restrictions there. Edited 02/01/06
Example 1: You colonize Hoth in year 2426. 20000 Golems invade in year 2427 and take over the planet. You cannot bring an OCS to orbit Hoth in year 2428. (But the Golems can.)
Example 2: You colonize Narnia in year 2413. You have an OCS destroyer arrive at Narnia in 2414 to blast the snot out of anyone who tries to take over Narnia in year 2414 or later.
Example 3: You try to colonize NoVacancy while someone (or multiple someones) also tries to colonize there in year 2416. IF you do not control the planet then you MUST redirect any offensively capable ships that are slated to arrive in 2417 such that NoVacancy is no longer the destination.
What this rule does.....
Controls the amount of landgrab tactics by either making one populate big or defensively protect their newly populated acquisitions. Allows limited warfare over key worlds at those key worlds. Continues to allow freighter muggings in space for those so inclined but keeps any large planet hopping force staved off for Phase II or later in the game.
Phase II. The formation of alliances.
2430-2460
Start of 2430, before any orders are submitted.
Each player can elect to divulge their current score, resources, PRT and Tech levels to those that are willing to share similar information. Whatever category you are willing to share is the category(ies) you will recieve a report from the host about those that are also willing to share. For the categories you do not share you will only recieve the NA (NotAvailable) or SB (SuBmitted) information. After all optional info is submitted, each player will be given their own report with information about each race and their election status concerning each category. Deliberate pop lifting to reduce score will be frowned upon, but at this point I'm not going to limit it. Edited 02/01/06
Sample Diplomacy Report for the Featherheads
Tech levels
Race Score Resources PRT N W P C E B
Applejacks 348 NA IT NA NA SB 14 10 NA
Beefeaters NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA NA
Carnivors 289 SB AR SB SB SB 12 11 7
Dingos NA NA IS NA NA SB 8 11 NA
Echos 344 SB JT NA NA NA NA NA NA
Featherheads
Greasers NA SB NA NA SB NA NA NA NA
Hilltoppers 311 SB NA NA NA NA NA 9 NA
Invincible NA NA WM SB NA SB 11 NA NA
Jackels NA NA NA SB NA NA NA NA 8
KrisKringles 351 NA NA NA NA NA NA NA 6
Listeners NA NA SS NA NA NA NA 18 NA
Others would see that the Featherheads have submitted their score, PRT and Tech levels for Construction, Electronics and Biotech, but not their Resources, PRT or Tech levels for eNergy, Weapons or Propulsion.
Each player will become either a TEAM LEADER, TEAM MEMBER, or a STANDALONE.
Each TEAM LEADER will be allowed a number of allies based on their ranking, or may elect STANDALONE status.
If you are offered an alliance and decline, that is a declaration of STANDALONE status, no waiting around to see if you get any "better" offers.
If you are offered a position on a team and accept, you are then allied with the team leader AND if applicable, any other team member that the team leader has agreed alliance with.
You will ONLY be notified of the racename of the TEAM LEADER race, not any team member.
Team members may offer input and suggestions concerning subsequent members to the TEAM LEADER if the team leader wishes it, but the team leader is the only one allowed to offer a contract.
IF your race is offered a contract AFTER you already belong to a team (as a leader or as a member), you will be notified of the offer but you CANNOT accept it.
Alliance offers are made through the host and are by race name only. They are 30 years in duration and are only know to the offered and offering parties.
e.g. The Beefeaters offer alliance to the Dingos, NOT The Beefeaters offer alliance to the second place race.
"Contracts" will be returned to the offering race stamped either, Accepted or Unavailable. Unavailable can mean that the race has either already pledged allegiance elsewhere, or has elected standalone status.
1st place ranking can elect STANDALONE or become a TEAMLEADER to 1 other race.
THEN....
2nd place ranking IF not already offered a contract can elect STANDALONE or become a TEAMLEADER to 2 other races.
THEN....
3rd place ranking IF not already offered a contract can elect STANDALONE or become a TEAMLEADER to 3 other races.
and continuing thusly down the ranks.
Set your newly pledged teammates to friend, and go scheme with your new friends.
Phase III. Civil war?
Start of Year 2460. All players will recieve a report listing racename membership of each alliance, the average score for each alliance and score for each standalone, and average total number of tech levels for each alliance and standalone. At start of year 60 all alliances are void, set all races to neutral or enemy. Non-agression pacts may be freely offered and are completely up to each individual player from this point forward.
Phase IV. Underdog Union
Start of Year 2480. Any player that feels they have been suitably battered but has escaped extinction, may apply for membership, through the host, into the Underdog Union. You may apply in any year after 2480 also. To qualify for acceptance for membership in the Underdog Union your score must be below 50% of the highest current score. Note that this 50% is to be for acceptance into the UU, once you are in the UU you are "permanently" allied with all members of the Underdog Union regardless of score.
Phase V?
At this point one of two things will filter out.....either the last existing superpower will systematically obliterate members of the Underdog Union......and you then have your Supreme Starmaster.
OR the only existing races belong to the UU. Guess what happens if the UU "wins".........it disbands, 10 years to celebrate....full peace.... all races set to friend, get your ships off any planets you do not own, get them to safe harbors. Those with existing stargates MUST allow full passage to all players to any port of call. NO removing existing stargates, you may build more, you may upgrade them. Then no alliances again for 20 years, until the Survival Coalition forms 30 years after the UU "wins". Interestingly enough the acceptance criteria for admittance into the Survival Coalition is just like it was with the UU. 50%or lower of the highest score, applied for through the host. (notice that with the increased tech levels you now have it is much harder to meet acceptance criteria)
I think this would make a really neat rollercoaster game where varied levels of experience might actually enhance gameplay.
Player/Racename
1.Ptolemy
2.NingunOtro
3.rowenstin
4.lachancery
5.
6.
7.
8.
9.
10.
11.
12.
[Updated on: Sun, 05 February 2006 22:48] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Mon, 30 January 2006 14:42  |
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Just a note on Phase IV:
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To qualify for acceptance for membership in the Underdog Union your score must be below 10% of the highest current score. Note that this 10% is to be for acceptance into the UU,
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I think you mean to state that the score needs to be 10% less than the highest score. A race with 13 planets and 16k resources in 9th place can have a score of 1000 or more where a race with 100+ planets in 1st place and 152k resources lets say has a score of 7450. If the score has to be 10% or less of the highest score, the 9th place player would have to have a score of 745 or less. OR, do you mean that a race qualifies for the UU if the score is 6705 or less? Perhaps you need to re-think this a little.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Mon, 30 January 2006 15:34 |
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| Kelzar |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 112
Registered: January 2006
Location: Ohio, US | |
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The concept is such that those that are getting left in the dust can band together to try to create enough of a force to influence the game, but not setting the threshold too high so that someone deliberately sandbags to become the dominant force in the UU/SC.
The first few players in the UU/SC would most likely be those with the weakest race/position/experience, with stronger ones falling later, those that get knocked down below the threshold can collectively come back. Maybe 10% of highest current score is too high, maybe 20% is about right maybe 50%.
I was thinking that 10% is the entry point, maybe after a good 20 - 50 years the topseed in the UU is up to 70% of of the highest score again?
Imagine playing a game against the computer that had 11 TUNED races where they coordinated invasions and other activity, planet hopped, set decoys and traps, exchanged concentrated tech researching. Think the veterans could still steamroll them easily? Maybe a veteran gets a crappy initial planet draw, they could become the prime force in the UU and ultimately come back.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Mon, 30 January 2006 16:14 |
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Imagine playing a game against the computer that had 11 TUNED races
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A problem is they tend to not be tuned so well. The players who fell behind are likely less skilled which affects team play. A single player with large force will easier coordinate and risk portions for greater good of his empire than a committee of weak players each with some selfish motives.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 01:08 |
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Other than the UU requirements for entrance to the UU, if and wehn that happens, everything else looks fine. I'll play in the game and I'll see what I can do to help out some newcomers.
You need to define better by what criteria you are going to admit members to the UU. So, to help you out, here are the scores and resource counts for a real game that I've been playing against some monster CA's (and various other PRT's). This game has PPS on and it is year 2488 so there is no harm in providing the info.
PRT Resources Score
1st place: CA 152K 7255
2nd place: SS 141K 6498
3rd place: CA 140K 6413
4th place: JOAT 140K 5575
5th place: JOAT? 71K 3632
6th place: IT 74K 3543
7th place: SD 42K 2005
8th place: JOAT? 16K 865 (Player inactive/dead)
9th place: HE 7K 527 (Player inactive/dead)
10th place: IS 4K 410 (Player inactive/dead)
11th place: IT 0 91 (Player dead)
Now, based on this, players in effectively 5th through 7th should qualify to join the UU. I think you need to use the criteria of resources rather than score to set the qualification and the value of 50% or less of the 1st place resource count . That should keep your qualification reasonable.
Ptolemy
P.S. if you're curious where I am in that list, I'm the SS 
[Updated on: Tue, 31 January 2006 01:10]
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 01:49 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 00:08 |
Other than the UU requirements for entrance to the UU, if and wehn that happens, everything else looks fine. I'll play in the game and I'll see what I can do to help out some newcomers.
You need to define better by what criteria you are going to admit members to the UU. So, to help you out, here are the scores and resource counts for a real game that I've been playing against some monster CA's (and various other PRT's).
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CA's are allowed? Heh...Maybe I'll play too.
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PRT Resources Score
1st place: CA 152K 7255
2nd place: SS 141K 6498
3rd place: CA 140K 6413
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What size universe is this? CA scores seems awfully low. I've only ever played a TT CA once, in Bug2, just to confirm its power, and ofc screwed up the race design...but that doesn't matter much with a CA, and I still hit ~275K at Y2488.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 03:03 |
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According to the way I read it, anyone can elect to be standalone the whole game.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 03:23 |
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| NingunOtro |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 105
Registered: September 2005
Location: Brussels, Belgium | |
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| Quote: |
I think this would make a really neat rollercoaster game where varied levels of experience might actually enhance gameplay.
Response?
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In providing a game concept where players with varied levels of experience could deploy their more or less advanced skills in an acceptable and meaningful, non-disruptive way, making the game enjoyable to all no matter what heterogenous set of skill-levels accidentally comes together in one particular setup, you achieve one mayor and desirable goal that is much needed if we want to increase the player community: you take away the fear of those who are not "ranked" or have no means to match their self-imposed rank to any real-conditions ranking of ending in the wrong game and be guilty by ignorance of disrupting intended gameplay.
Which game should someone that comes from the outside of the established and wellknown community (¿incestuous?, and bored for lack of new challenges perhaps?) join? One can be too much a newbie or too much experienced, as no matter what rank one adopts as own it is still only relative in sofar others may adopt their ranks considering a wide array of different criteria. So, more than would be desirable one ends up in a game where ones skills are disruptively underrated or overrated.
I think everybody that is seriously concerned about the survival of this old and venerable, yet still very enjoyable game should think more about this sort of setups that could act as safe first-contact scenarios. They supply a practical test-case with which errors in self-imposed first-time rankings can be safely corrected without the risk of spoiling the game for others that think that the games they heavily invest in are not free-ride labs for reckless genetic engineers without ethics.
I'd be willing to play a few, just to know with who I can match my own unrated skill level before I enter any more skill-level specific games.
I hope I did not bore anybody so far.
If we were esteemed intelligent 'enough', they would have contacted us.
If we can not find them, either we are not smart enough, or they are smarter at hiding.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 10:42 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| NingunOtro wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 02:23 |
| Quote: |
I think this would make a really neat rollercoaster game where varied levels of experience might actually enhance gameplay.
Response?
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In providing a game concept where players with varied level...I'd be willing to play a few, just to know with who I can match my own unrated skill level before I enter any more skill-level specific games.
I hope I did not bore anybody so far.
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Well...I would still hold to my original take on this game. Great concept, probably won't work. If I understand you correctly, the goal would be to get veterans playing with less experienced players. However, veteran players view this as MM. It can also be very frustrating.
The first thing that came to my mind, and why I asked about standalone, is that that would be the perfect way to play in my view. Score isn't necessarily an accurate depiction of strength. It would be easy to design a race that seems like a #2 or #3 race, but is in fact more powerful. That's the way I usually design my races anyway (sometimes its even on purpose!), since you get other advantages, like more mins, cheaper tech or better hab.
Anyway, it sounds like choosing standalone gives you a choice of NAPs with everyone. So, you can still act with the UU, or even side with the #1 player, effectively taking advantage of an opening on either side or playing balance of power. That is more attractive to me, than being part of a UU coalition.
Iztok's mention of removing MM, and Ptolemy's quick response to my question...makes me wonder if I am the only one thinking along those lines.
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you take away the fear of those who are not "ranked" or have no means to match their self-imposed rank
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Well, if I play, you have nothing to fear from me. I am not ranked. 
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 11:57 |
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| Kelzar |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 112
Registered: January 2006
Location: Ohio, US | |
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| mlaub wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 02:24 |
So...If I am reading this right, I can just elect standalone through the whole game? No matter what my score is?
This could be fun in some interesting ways.
-Matt
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Yes, anyone may elect standalone status through the whole game if it so suits them.
After reviewing the input and my own posts, current modifications to rules will be.......
2430 Rule. Example 4 that was given would actually be in violation of the 2430 rule as the OCS escort would not be allowed to arrive AT THE PLANET on the SAME YEAR that it was colonized.
Entrance criteria into the UU and SC is still pending....
The sample scores and resources of a real game, thank you Ptolemy, will assist in finding the right criteria. If anyone else would like to submit actual scores and resources at or near 2480 those results may also be helpful.
Tonight I will run a few tests to help fine tune the UU/SC criteria.
I have also thought about the first few immediate years after the UU/SC "wins", serious utter chaos and to help alleviate selfish motives ....therefore.... for 10 years after the UU/SC "wins"....full peace.... all races set to friend, get your ships off any planets you do not own, get them to safe harbors. Those with existing stargates MUST allow full passage to all players to any port of call. NO removing existing stargates, you may build more, you may upgrade them.
I would love to play in this game, however, the host must be privy to information that players will not have. I have hosted hotseat games, and am current hosting my first email duel but I may need some technical help getting the autohost portion up and running.
For years 2430 & 2460 I will need game passwords submitted to verify Resources, Score, PRT and Tech levels so I can create the Diplomacy Reports.
For whoever is in first place from year 2480 forward you will also need to provide your game password to ascertain current highest score/resources information for UU/SC acceptance criteria.
Signup Sheet for Balance of Power
Racename or Player
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
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12.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 12:37 |
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Since you aren't playing and will be doing all this hosting work I recommend that you require passwords at all times - if someone drops out then you have a chance at finding a replacement. Require .h files periodically so that in the event that you need to find a replacement you can provide a history file.
It is highly unlikely that the UU/SC will win (this type of co-alition very seldom can win a game since they tend to be leaderless)
The autohost portion is easy and I'll be happy to help you get it set up. Just send me a PM mail in the Forum and I'll give you my e-mail address and help you set up the AH side of things.
Go ahead and put me in as Player one. I'll figure out what race I will play and send it to you.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Tue, 31 January 2006 12:40]
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 13:08 |
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Backblast is correct here. SD minelayers are going to have to be regulated as OCS ships and remote detonation banned / conditionally prohibited to some degree.
My recomendation would be that SD minefields be prohibited outside a specific distance from an SD planet during the first phase. Otherwise it is too easy for an SD to send out several mini-minelayers and prevent their nearest neighbors from easily leaving any of their own planets.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 14:09 |
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Despite it being large universe, I think HE would have fun in a game like this... Spore clouds everywhere backed by a few man-jet destroyers.
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| Re: Variety of experience |
Tue, 31 January 2006 15:46 |
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| Kelzar |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 112
Registered: January 2006
Location: Ohio, US | |
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| BackBlast wrote on Tue, 31 January 2006 13:13 |
Another point unclear to me is how many teamleaders there is going to be? And can you be a team leader and not make offers for several years?
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The number of TEAMLEADERS will not be determined until 2430 and is partially determined by the number of standalones.
I suspect the top few players may opt STANDALONE.
My guess is that there will be between 2 to 4 alliances.
NO orders will be processed, NO gen will occur until alliances are set. Year 2431 does not happen until the teams are established.
As far as pop lifting to lower your score for 2430 and 2460 okay fine, you want to make yourself look weaker and not attract many alliance offers, you believe you are safer not looking like the big guy, okay, lets see how that works out for you, maybe it does. I'm more concerned about pop lifting to get into the UU/SC and why I want to do some testing before finalizing acceptance criteria.
SD and mines on/near unoccupied planets....agreed potential problems....mine laying capable SHIPS will not be NOT be considered an OCS, however, detonating a minefield whose perimeter extends to an unowned planet would be a violation of the 2430 rule.
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) or the fourth X for the other one. Why am I so "cruel"? It removes one variable (and some MM) from the game, it gives more space to me, and after he's crippled it is so much easy to remove him completely, so why not do that? 
since I'm also not ranked...
