Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » IT gate scanning and ISB
| IT gate scanning and ISB |
Wed, 04 January 2006 16:53  |
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 Bloodnok |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: November 2005 | |
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I've read in the known bugs thread that IT gate scanning doesn't work from a 150/600 gate or an any/800 gate, but is the 100/250 also affected?
Situation would be this: Two IT races start within 250ly of each other - one has ISB, one does not. The player with ISB doesn't appear to the player without ISB, but the player without ISB does appear to the player with ISB.
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| Re: IT gate scanning and ISB |
Wed, 04 January 2006 20:34  |
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Stargate scanning is affected by station cloaking. If you cloak a station to 50% you will only be able to scan the station from an IT stargate at half the distance of the range of the gate - in the case of a 100/250 gate you would only see the cloaked starbase if it was within 125 ly. orbital stations - regardless of their size have an automatic 20% cloaking. Therefore, a 100/250 gate can not scan another stargate unless it is within 200 Ly.
I have not encountered any problems with any of the stargates with scanning and, a useful trick when the 100/any gate becomes available is to build ONE of them somewhere at a little used location. x/any gates are not affected by any orbital cloaking and see every stargate in the galaxy - i.e. any% of infinity is still infinity.
ISB has no effect on gate scanning. In the situation you describe it may be that the 2 planets are at the very edge of the range when the cloaking is calculated and due to the rounding of numbers one could see the other but not vice versa since it is very seldom that any 2 planets will be on a direct east-west or north-south line from each other. There will be fractions of light years.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Wed, 04 January 2006 20:38]
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| Re: IT gate scanning and ISB |
Thu, 05 January 2006 17:49 |
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Please keep in mind that the 'known bugs' section is definitely out of date. We in the stars community do work on it from time to time but, some items were fixed in earlier releases and the 'known bugs' file was probably not updated. If there is still a small bug with the gate scanning I haven't seen it (and I personally still play IT races from time to time). In the grand scheme of things though, any bug in this area is very minor and has very little affect on game play.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Bugs Section (was Re: IT gate scanning and ISB) |
Thu, 05 January 2006 20:53 |
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I do know how the JRC4 patch did and did not fix things - I was part of the JRC4 beta test team.
The minefield bug does still exist - the JRC4 update did address but the problem was not able to eliminate it. This bug still exists and must be banned in games. Effectively what happens is that now, after the 'fix', sometimes fleets hit mines BUT, far less than with normal travel. This has never been quantified but I have seen it and worked with it in real games to see results. (Call this extra beta testing because I have never tried to exploit it - I love this game too much to ever try to cheat anybody - I am also VERY adept at spotting cheaters).
JRC4 also tried to address the issue of the split fleet dodge. I worked a lot in this case with Jeff and the final change was the best that could be done - it is now better than when I discovered the problem. This 'split fleet' case is something that needs to be written up in the new help file and defined (since I know exactly how it works it's quite easy to write up). The split fleet dodge can easily be worked now to the advantage of either player involved.
I stopped playing IT about 4 years ago - it was just too easy for me to win as an IT. I have tromped on killer CA's as IT. I now play lesser PRT's and still am highly competetive, I get more of a challenge this way and have much more fun. I have never had a problem with gate scanning - it is such a monor benefit for the IT. Moving minerals and colonists through gates is the ultimate strength for an IT.
[Beware all of you, look for the new killer WM about to make it's debue (before the final race design tweaks I'll be lucky to win a game - but, we shall see and I will try)]
The ability of gate scanning provides intel, but not a great deal of it. You see the type of orbital (fort or dock, station or ultra) - but, unless you have actually had a battle with that same type of station you don't know its design (heck, you aren't WM asafter all). The only other thing you really get is the planet stats - by the time the /any gates are available most of the universe has already been scanned anyway. The most important thing you really want to see with gate scanning is ships in orbit of the planet. Gate scanning doesn't provide this.
I honestly have no issue with gate scanning - I simply accept the way it works regardless of how it's advertised. When I play an IT I certainly don't build stations for the purpose of seeing gates (other than the ONE 100/any space dock). I build orbitals for building ships and moving pop and minerals. Other than the one off 100/any gate which has ALWAYS shown me every planet in a galaxy with a stargate I never build a station that simply I wanty to scan with gates.
Regarding overall designs and strategies - I truly believe and am willing to pay for the priveledge of penetrating scanners. During attacks this ability saves a minimal of one turn and a potential disaster. Knowing what hte enemy has in orbit as you attack is paramount AND, with penn scanning technology you can keep an eye on planets and better select targets . (NO, Stars! is NOT a game for everybody to pussyfood around diplomacy - Stars! IS a war game. Crush your opponents and take their planets.
BTW, Only an SS can enslave enemy worlds as slave mine labor for minerals (oops - perhaps I shouldn't have given my secret weapon away  )
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Thu, 05 January 2006 21:12]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Bugs Section (was Re: IT gate scanning and ISB) |
Fri, 06 January 2006 11:14 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Thu, 05 January 2006 19:53 |
I do know how the JRC4 patch did and did not fix things - I was part of the JRC4 beta test team.
The minefield bug does still exist - the JRC4 update did address but the problem was not able to eliminate it. This bug still exists and must be banned in games. Effectively what happens is that now, after the 'fix', sometimes fleets hit mines BUT, far less than with normal travel.
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I have reported in the past that there is a issue with movement a few degrees 1 way or the other of N/S. Is this part of what you are talking about? was that ever fixed? I haven't tested since that time, which may have been pre JRC4. Essentially, I was testing an imminent chaff sweep + attack in the same turn using missile DN's w/megapoly shells located 100 ly off an AR HW. The fleet was cloaked, and would not have been detected, but I only had one shot at taking out the HW and +4500 miners in orbit... The testing surprised me in that nearly all the chaff passed through the minefield without a hit, but the fleet didn't make it. I repeated the test several times with about the same chaff hit results. Thinking that this might be tied to the N/S bug, I back off to 11 ly movement on the x axis, IIRC, and that fixed the issue. Luckily I tested the attack 2 turns out, so I could jump to the appropriate coordinates, but I never forget the lesson.
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The ability of gate scanning provides intel, but not a great deal of it...by the time the /any gates are available most of the universe has already been scanned anyway.
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I happen to think it is a very powerful tool. I have reversed engineered a couple of races to great effect.
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The most important thing you really want to see with gate scanning is ships in orbit of the planet. Gate scanning doesn't provide this.
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No, but designs are usually not to hard to reverse engineer, either. IIRC, you get to see the weight, no? Unless someone is making off the wall designs, it is easy to figure out.
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(NO, Stars! is NOT a game for everybody to pussyfood around diplomacy - Stars! IS a war game. Crush your opponents and take their planets.
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Totally agree. Wish socialittes that like to form large alliances around numero uno player would switch to games designed for such herd mentality. 
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: IT gate scanning and ISB |
Fri, 06 January 2006 11:26 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| Bloodnok wrote on Wed, 04 January 2006 16:53 |
I've read in the known bugs thread that IT gate scanning doesn't work from a 150/600 gate or an any/800 gate, but is the 100/250 also affected?
Situation would be this: Two IT races start within 250ly of each other - one has ISB, one does not. The player with ISB doesn't appear to the player without ISB, but the player without ISB does appear to the player with ISB.
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To quote from Know Bugs:
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Improved Starbases makes gates invisible to some IT gate scanning. ITs can't see ISB gates with 150kT/600ly gates and infinite/800ly.
This may seem like a limited liability, however, there is often a fairly long period where infinite/800ly gates are the best that can be built, before the 100ly/infinite or infinite/infinite gates can be built. {quote LEit}
Note that the other race only needs the ISB LRT, they do not have to build a Space Dock or an Ultra Station to make their gate invisible, any hull will do.
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What you're seeing is probably the 20% cloak provided by ISB, note that that cloaking was taken into account when testing the bug (with JRC4).
[Mod edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Sat, 07 January 2006 05:01] by Moderator
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Bugs Section (was Re: IT gate scanning and ISB) |
Fri, 06 January 2006 11:31 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| mlaub wrote on Fri, 06 January 2006 11:14 |
| Ptolemy wrote on Thu, 05 January 2006 19:53 |
The most important thing you really want to see with gate scanning is ships in orbit of the planet. Gate scanning doesn't provide this.
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No, but designs are usually not to hard to reverse engineer, either. IIRC, you get to see the weight, no? Unless someone is making off the wall designs, it is easy to figure out.
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Gate scanning does not show ships in orbit, just the orbital, and it doesn't give a design (unless known from battle) or mass for that. It does show pop (+-20% of course), hab, and MCs. Hab for CAs can often provide current info on their tech, because as soon as they get the tech, every world gets terraformed.
Pen scanning is more expensive, lower range, but better with one exception. Gate scanning tells you that the world has a gate. Pen scanning does not unless you can also see the design of the orbital.
[Mod edit: fixed quote]
[Updated on: Sat, 07 January 2006 05:02] by Moderator
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Bugs Section (was Re: IT gate scanning and ISB) |
Sat, 07 January 2006 06:42 |
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| Bloodnok |
| Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: November 2005 | |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Thu, 05 January 2006 20:53 |
I have never had a problem with gate scanning - it is such a minor benefit for the IT. Moving minerals and colonists through gates is the ultimate strength for an IT.
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Yup - I build gates for moving stuff through them, but I find the scanning a useful extra feature. It certainly is a fringe benefit, but it does help when planning an attack that you can see where the enemy has gates (and thus where stuff might turn up at short notice), and also when hopping through friendly foreign space to get somewhere, you can tell where you are likely to be able to jump - all in that last 10 minutes before AH gens the next turn, and without needing a potentially lengthy request to someone to ask where their gates are, which they will inevitably answer wrongly in some critical aspect (like it's going to be finished next turn, so it'll not work this year...)
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