Hi!

mlaub wrote on Wed, 22 February 2006 19:29

Last time I ran the numbers, the fact that the BMC fires before Amps, every time, helped matters in certain situations. Plus, the multi stack hits can be a huge factor.

Correct, if there would be multiple stacks to hit. Main design of beamer (let's say AMP) and supporting high init megaD+sapper nub are the only two that move forward. Arm nub with retreat orders is at column 1 or 0, and chaff is at 2. The megaD nub still fires before BMC-one, kills chaff, saps shields, dies in return-fire. Arm opens and heavily hits the sapped advancing BMC, then AMP opens and (with its much bigger damage maybe) clears the front. Even if not, there is now only one stack in the range of BMC nubs. That's why I suggested keeping the number of designs low.

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any BB or DN hull would have a higher initial init then an Amp armed Nub

Well, who cares, if they shot the first, when I'm 75% deflected and 66% jammed, and they aren't? Even with double nub hull costs my nubs have still at least double their defense/costs ratio. Ant that still doesn't exclude MY specialized first-shoot BMC BB design.
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Thu, 23 February 2006 03:38]

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[Updated on: Thu, 23 February 2006 13:18]

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Hi!

multilis wrote on Thu, 23 February 2006 19:14

I'm seeing you only 49% jammed due to tech limitations.

If we're talking about wizzard's situation then you can't me seing as I didn't HAVE nubs yet. I just suggested buying jammer-30 before building nubs. Going from expensive elec 14 to elec 17 is about 80k resources. Shouldn't be a problem for a late-game HE.

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... because those battleships are killing your flak. Once your flak is gone and your shields weakenned, the missile boats slaughter you. Before you die, you manage to kill the beamers within range. ...

Remember, I'm reacting to their ships. Most designs are known, and they operate in my space. If the situation is really critical (I can't wait for jammer-30) and they're missile-heavy, I can simply put 2 slots of jammer-20 on my nubs. If they manipulate positions on battle board, I can transfer all my ships to my ally (or vice versa).

My point is: all you've mentioned is counterable, and there's no hull to perform that task better than Nubian. At the end of this phase it will come to matching weakly-defended BBs/DNs to highly-defended and tailored_to_their_weaknesses Nubians. I have no doubts who should win that phase.
BR, Iztok

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[Updated on: Tue, 07 March 2006 08:37]

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wizard wrote on Tue, 07 March 2006 07:37

Hello again, Dreadnoughts with Ini 40. IMO, those are nearly impossible to counter without Nubians

Are the init 40 ships beamers? or missile boats? I'm hoping beamers, cause if that is the case, you have won. He will run out of G more quickly then you will run out of Nubs to counter them.

If they are missile boats, here is another "Matt Logic" for ya. The enemy is going Init war to the extreme. So, don't bother with high init on your missile ships. In fact, shoot last! Everyone always argues with me on this one. So, everyone who feels I am wrong about shooting last, stop reading now. Nothing to see here, bad advice forthcoming...stay smug knowing you are superior.

Scroll down to read Matt Logic. Missiles: "Firing first, by firing last".












Ok, here is the deal. With a normal factoried race, and especially with BET, my guess is that germ is gonna be in short supply if you push init, Nub hull G cost is more than normal. So, making a high init Nub is simply suicide. You won't have enough G, and you won't be able to build out the rest of your metal with truly efficient designs. That being said, why is shooting last so bad? Shooting last can be a good thing, if it means your shot actually matters, doesn't hit chaff.

1. WM chaff moves to fast.

You can build chaff killers that fire before his missile ships fairly easily. They kill his chaff on round 1, and I believe you can use the Big Mutha. As long as it fires first, the chaff dies. No way to stop it, unless it moves off to the side. Since it won't matter, split them up to avoid that problem.

Engine
1 OT
4 Nexus
5 BM
2 Flux

2. Counter chaff killers and High Init

He can't play the same trick on you as above. Your normal chaff should only move 1 space, and that means r3 beamers for Anti chaff ships. Check your designs. Make sure you have something that is more attactive to beams than your chaff, as a buffer. Maybe your mainline ships will do the trick.

3. Sapper armed ships.

This ties to the next point. Normally, I'd say forget it... but here's the dealio. He doesn't have Nubs. BB's and Dreads can't have enough BD's. So, sapper ships can really hurt if you take the shields down before the missiles fire in the first turn. This is only a stop gap ship if your mainline beam nub BM's won't be enough. Sappers are low bora so it is not targeted if you do take out the shields. That means they are reusable. Max the sappers, and flux, you may not even need shields.

4. Your missile ships

This is the real trick. Make sure your missile ships fire *after* the BM's on the main line Nubs. Your main line nubs should have a init of 15 on the BM's. Your missile ships should have 1 stack Nexii and Arms. That's an init of 14. For those who say 87% is not good enough for missile comps, laugh at them and build 10% more missile ships with your germ savings.

So, if you followed this...you hopefully understand why shooting last is better, and WHY I like my main nub design to have a BM on it (aside from the obvious reasons). I know that I'm gonna pay for explaining this sometime in the future, but what the heck.

For those of you that didn't follow it, the point is that the 40 init missile boats are going to hit nothing but chaff the first turn (might as well not even fire), and your missile boats will kill unshielded beamers. Essentially "firing first by firing last", hitting something useful in round 1. That also means it is likely your chaff will be there the next round, and your opponet will be vapor.

The rest of the peices come together nicely, once you start doing some math on #'s of ships vs quality of ships, and mineral stockpile usability.

All this takes situational awareness, too. You just can't throw these designs together and expect to beat everyone. You need to keep track of enemy designs, and check all your options, and make effective counters.

This goes both ways, too. In a team game, my team was losing. We were the ones with BB's

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[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2006 00:25]

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[Updated on: Wed, 08 March 2006 12:03]

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Me once again. The game has just 1-2 generations per week, so not much time has passed. Still, the stituation hasn't become better.

The enemy team has taken out about 10 of our planets (among them one with lots of Ironium on it ). He has a fleet of 80 of the above described beamer DNs, plus 20 Arm DNs (same design, just all weapons replaced with ARMs). I currently have 80 Beam Nubs (mostly Matt's design, with 1 BMC and 2 AMP) and 30 Arm BBs (16 Arms, 7 SBCs). Our tech is about max, except that we don't have Battle Nexi and Prop23 NRSE engine yet.
The enemy main fleet is threatening my fleet assembling planet, so I'll have to retreat as I don't see how I should kill it by now - I'd need some more Nubians for that, plus a good tactic. He doesn't have much chaff, but the main problem is that my Nubians are dead before they even get to fire because they have lower initiative. Okay, I can just build some more to defend against his beamers, but what can I do against the Missile ships?

• If they have retreat orders, my chaff isn't fast enough - my Nubs get killed. I can't use fast chaff as the enemy has a few BMC ships that shoot first and would kill my chaff in all cases.
  
• If they have normal orders, I can have my chaff retreating, as it will get killed by the enemy beamers first before his missile ships fire. My Nubians are dead then.
  

If we'd have some more time, we'd win by mineral superiority. I just don't know if we have enough time for that now...

Any comments on the situation?

Andreas

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wizard wrote on Thu, 30 March 2006 08:02

Me once again. The game has just 1-2 generations per week, so not much time has passed. Still, the stituation hasn't become better. The enemy team has taken out about 10 of our planets (among them one with lots of Ironium on it ). He has a fleet of 80 of the above described beamer DNs, plus 20 Arm DNs Any comments on the situation?

Is there some reason that you are not taking out their planets too? I mean, really, you both have the upper hand. They have a bigger fleet, you have a fleet that easily gateable...remember to use cloaked minelayers to delay any chance at intercept from their main fleets.

Also, are you using retreating missile ships on their ships? can't remember the designs, but doing that for a few turns = no enemy beamer ships.

Next...What about first shot bomber/freighter killers? I know you know how to use them.


-Matt

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wizard wrote on Thu, 30 March 2006 09:42

We are think about it. The problem is that there is a 200 ly gap between our planets and theirs. But you are right - they probably cannot build a defense fleet early enough. That will then be the game "who can kill planets faster?"...

Well...yea. The problem for them, will be that if you get a toe hold and put up a gate in their territory, you can gate all your new builds in...or out. So, while you are mutually killing each other, you will eventually have a fleet that can kill theirs, at some point, if I remember the situation correctly. Then, you can just gate back and take it out. They can't do that without loss and damage.

Lots of other things to say here, like splitting fleets, multiple targets etc..but I think you get the drift.

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I will do that. Do you mean sending in the missile ships without a supporting fleet? Interesting idea... They'd need fast movement then, I suppose.

Yes, this is why I like fast missile ships, 2.25 minimum. Flexibility. I believe I mentioned this in the last thread, but can't find it. Otherwise I'd quote myself.

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That's not easy, as they have first kill BMC ships around. And they have Battle Nexi, we don't.

Save that one for the back burner, then. Re-evalute if you get Nexii

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Thanks for your answers, Andreas

Heh. No Problem. Anything for a current enemy.

-Matt

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[Updated on: Fri, 31 March 2006 09:58]

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