The first TWW game just ended, here is a new one for the OWW addicts! Come on and join! Twice as many HWs is twice the fun!

(most of this announcement is a copy and paste from the first, though there are some additional rules)

Game Name: Twin World Wonder Two (TWWT)
Host Name: Micha
Host e-mail: micha /at/ starsautohost /dot/ org (replace the obvious)

Game will be on Autohost.

Turn rate: Tue-Wed-Thu-Fri-Sat at 5.00am GMT

Number of Players: 8
Universe size: Tiny
Universe density: Packed
Player Starting Positions: Distant

Skill Level: intermediate and above, please no beginners

Game Options:
___ Beginner: Maximum Minerals
___ Slower Tech Advances
_x_ Accelerated BBS
_x_ No Random Events
___ Computer Players Form Alliances
___ Public Player Scores
___ Galaxy Clumping


Details:
Each race will be designed as a OWW, however the Gods are in a good mood and you're granted 2 HWs to start with.

A neutral party will gen the game and use each race twice (hence only 8 players). The Twin HWs will be moved so they are at about 81ly from eachother (could be less in some cases).
All pop will be removed from one world and it will be colonized by it's Twin race. Both HWs will be identical, they'll both have a base and the same number and design of starting ships.
The pop and minerals on the surface of both worlds will be brought back to the starting level of the year 2400. No factories, mines or defenses will be build, no research will be done. Only the mineral concentrations will be slighty different because there will be some mining.

IOW you will play with one race (not two) but will start with 2 HWs both with the same stats as your original HW(s) in 2400.


Rules:

• All races are One World Wonders, all 3 habs are as small as possible and shifted to the right edge.
  
• Race restrictions: SD is banned. JoaT can't take NAS.
  
• Packet attacks on HWs are not allowed. Other worlds are ok, PP needs something to target in order to use their packets for scanning. They can target unknown planets only once and with the smallest packet possible (since that could turn out to be a HW).
  
• No cheats allowed, except for chaff and split fleet dodge (keep it reasonable). You can find a good (but not complete!) bug list at http://www.starsfaq.com/bugs.htm or here at the forum in "Must Know" section(this one is more complete and I'd like to suggest you read this one).
  
• One person playing more than one race is not allowed.
  
• Players missing more than 5 turns in a row will be set to inactive.
  
  
• There will be a restriction in relations! The first TWW game turned out too much diplomacy, not enough fighting (at least to my taste). Not decided yet, can be discussed with the players. For now it will be something like "all enemy except for one friend" (other possibilities are for example "no friends" or "one friend and one neutral").
  
  

Victory Conditions:
The race owning 8 HWs wins. To "own" a HW you need 100.000 pop on the surface and a starbase in orbit (the starbase hull or above are valid, fort and dock are not). Or winner declared by player majority vote.


What to do:
Express your interest here. Send your race files to the neutral party (trying to get donjon to help me out again if he agrees email address will be posted) WITHOUT password, this makes it easier for him to do the setup. You can tell him what you would like as a password and he'll change it once he's done with the setup and before he sends the files to AutoHost.

mch

[Updated on: Wed, 17 August 2005 17:58]

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multilis wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 16:13

Having everyone else set to enemy does not restrict tech trading/cooperation by self, my suggestion is all set to enemy and no trading, no diplomacy except in game message to everyone.

Yes, I thought that (even down to the in game message to all part)
Depends on whether you take the phrase "all set to enemy" as a single rule applying only to player relations, or treat it as a "spirit of the game" thing.
Looks like everythig has to be spelled out, huh ?

Of course it doesn't prevent people from publicly making implicit requests for assistance, which is fine.

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mazda wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 18:03

multilis wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 16:13 Having everyone else set to enemy does not restrict tech trading/cooperation by self, my suggestion is all set to enemy and no trading, no diplomacy except in game message to everyone. Yes, I thought that (even down to the in game message to all part) Depends on whether you take the phrase "all set to enemy" as a single rule applying only to player relations, or treat it as a "spirit of the game" thing. Looks like everythig has to be spelled out, huh ?

<sigh> Yes, looks like you're right and everything needs to be spelled out. I've even met a player once that would join a game with pre-game alliances (races build as a team) because the host did not explicitly disallowed them ... IMHO that's just plain cheating, but ...

Anyway "all enemy" would indeed be a "state of mind", "spirit of the game", ... (multilis, I thought that would be clear after TWW, but maybe you're not asking for yourself ...), not just a game setting.
No cooperation of any kind would be allowed, no tech trading, no battle board fiddling, no giving info about ship designs, ...

mch

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Hi!

Micha wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 15:54

The first TWW game just ended...

So what happened? Looks like an SS was the main PITA. Who and with what PRT won?

BTW I am interested to play here. I just don't know if RL issues will allow me that. Will know in until end of the month.
And I like the "no diplo/trading".
BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Fri, 12 August 2005 02:20]

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multilis wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 17:13

Quote: Race restrictions: SD is banned imo, SD PRT would be ok if exploding minefields were banned... SS PRT seemed like more effort to deal with last game. Not saying to get rid of SS, but that if SS is ok then SD without exploding minefields may be ok too.

You haven't seen a good player using an SD in a OWW yet, even without exploding minefields they can horribly slow down the pace of the game. That's why I'm banning them, not because of the added MM. That's different from an SS.

Quote:

Note for those with less experience in OWW games, having many mines is useful (though not crucial as some traded/salvaged/stole minerals to make their missile armadas).

Trade is out off the question here, unless players decide that having one friend would be ok.

Quote:

Having everyone else set to enemy does not restrict tech trading/cooperation by self, my suggestion is all set to enemy and no trading, no diplomacy except in game message to everyone.

Replied to that after mazda's post. To add: there is of course no way I can police messages between races (ingame or outgame), so I'm not going to restrict that. I can only hope that players live by the spirit of the game ("all enemy" or whatever it will turn out to be) ...

An example of how players always find way around things: another game of mine was a teamgame 4 teams of 3 with the teams setting all non-teammembers to enemy, no diplomacy was allowed, no NAPs, no border proposals ... now one of the teams would build a base saying "border at Earth" knowing the other team (not my team) would see the design (by WM or by battle) and agree with have a border there ...
You see, even saying: no ingame messages, no emails between players just wouldn't be enough! Humans just can find a way around anything!

Like mazda says: it looks like everything needs to be spelled out ...

mch

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iztok wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 08:18

Hi! Micha wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 15:54 The first TWW game just ended... So what happened? Looks like an SS was the main PITA. Who and with what PRT won?

VCs where not reached, it turned into a diplo game instead of a wargame (IMHO) ... so when it turned out half of the remaining races where friends or at least not willing to fight eachother the game ended. There was one last battle where everybody set the rest to enemy and threw all they had left of warships into that battle. For the record: that battle was won by multilis.
Therefor the added relation restrictions.

Heh, my race was the only one that completely died, could have survived but refused to make any diplomatic compromises (offers where made but those felt like insults to my race), so I died happily silent in battle.

Quote:

BTW I am interested to play here. I just don't know if RL issues will allow me that. Will know in until end of the month. And I like the "no diplo/trading". BR, Iztok

I know you like it! It's to lure you into the game! I'd be honoured if you joined.

mch

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Micha wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 07:27

Like mazda says: it looks like everything needs to be spelled out ... mch

Or you only play with people that you know.
Which is probably just as unsatisfactory in the long term.

I can't understand that if the host says the game is all enemy / no diplomacy then why would people join it and then try to tech trade, form alliances etc.
Why not join another game instead ?
Is it not clear what kind of game the host wants ??
Does it get "lost in translation" somewhere ???

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Re: diplomacy, why not just have "all enemies" and be done with it?

Edit: just sent in a race file.

[Updated on: Fri, 12 August 2005 08:22]

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iztok wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 08:18

So what happened? Looks like an SS was the main PITA. Who and with what PRT won?

Whenever I read one of multilis' posts concerning the game, I have to giggle

I was the SS in the game. I started out strongly, being #1 for quite some years, but reached my peak early without being able to get more planets. I think I was always leading technologically, first reaching Doomsdays (and later Armageddons, but that didn't matter), but I was too weak economically and had too few minerals to build a really powerful fleet. A second problem was that my two allies were fighting each other.
I managed to hide my PRT for quite some time (except my ally, the Germs, noticed, my other neighbour and later ally, the Vux, didn't), but did some strategical and tactical faults later. This threw me out of the game. Dreadnoughts were superior during most of the game, and before I could build a fleet which could beat the enemies' fleets, I was attacked by another enemy and my planets got bombed. I ended the game with just a fleet of stealthed bombers and a few freighter with colonists left. Still, it was a great and very interesting game for me

I really don't know why multilis feared me so much - he was at the other corner of the map. Yes, I did sent some cloaked scanner ships all over the galaxy, but I never was a threat to him, at least not from my point of view. I had other problems to handle... He must have some paranoia concerning SS races in general.

I think Micha has reserved a spot for me for the new game, I'd like to play again.

Regards,

Andreas / wizard

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Hi!

wizard wrote on Mon, 15 August 2005 11:06

I really don't know why multilis feared me so much - he was at the other corner of the map. Yes, I did sent some cloaked scanner ships all over the galaxy, but I never was a threat to him, at least not from my point of view. I had other problems to handle... He must have some paranoia concerning SS races in general.

IMO this comes from knowing what one would be capable to do to the other player if he'd be in his shoes (eg. multis playing SS against you ). At least I was such paranoid for quite some time. Thans for info anyway.
BR, Iztok

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I'm about to send through a race (hoping there isn't a waiting list and I wouldn't mind sharing with you PricklyPea.

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[Updated on: Mon, 15 August 2005 21:00]

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Might be getting time to split this up and make it the game review of TWW. So below most of Trash' story in reply to the Vloz.


Diplomacy and alliances :

multilis wrote on Tue, 16 August 2005 02:35

Quote: my race was the only one that completely died, could have survived but refused to make any diplomatic compromises Diplomatic comprimise? Trash (Micha) was allied with Germ all game and also traded or worked with DR and Void for parts of game. Given impression Trash asked at least DR and Germ to attack friendless -F race that previously tried to take him out. (Germ was also allied with Void, ~>< -F race seemed to have some unknown friendly relationship with Void for part of game)

That's not what I meant with diplomatic compromises.
Knowing everybody else was going to be tech trading I looked for one true ally/partner (usually enough because you can only get one tech per year), I didn't want to end up in a big alliance (hate those things).

I became friends with DR in the start, there was mentioning of making plans to take out Vloz but then the original player went missing and as host (and player) I didn't find it ethically to quickly take out an inactive player and take advantage. So a replacement was found (multilis). By that time DR didn't seem interested anymore and focussed on the Elerians, I in the mean while I got attacked by the ~><}{\|`* (the -f race) but my losses were relatively small. (vonKreedon, the ~><}{\|`* emperor explained later in a mail that he somehow got his designs for his croby FF horde wrong (twice) and when he got it right his window of opportunity had passed).
There was one more trade with the DR for penscans (him being JoaT I was sure he had some because in the rules JoaT could not take NAS), we dit not work together in any other way, like manipulating battle board positions or whatever, he didn't help me in any wars and I didn't help him, we both minded our own business.

So I started looking for another partner and found that in the Germs. They were the only other one race close to me, except for the Vloz of which my race already decided it would never join forces with and except for the ~><}{\|`* that already attacked me (somewhere 2425-2430) which made him an enemy for the entire game, that's the way Trash feels and role plays. I reluctantly allied with Germs ... reluctant because I know Eric of the Germs too well, we've played several team games together and we wanted to be enemies for a change, though I didn't had much of a choice. Note it was already past 2455 before the Germ/Trash alliance really got into effect and decided to go for the ~><}{\|`* HWs. During that time nobody except ~><}{\|`* and DR had made a move to another HW, so we figured it was about time to get into some action instead of all the talking that had been going on.

Germ had another ally with which they were tech trading, the SS Void, I had never talked to them and did not consider them to be my direct allies. I believe that Germs primary ally always was Void, me being secondary, again because of being to used to eachother and not wanting to lay such strong relations as we had in teamgames, always keeping in mind that if we both survived long enough we would be fighting eachother. Owning 8 HWs was the VC and we both were determined of sticking to that, breaking up the alliance when the time was there.


The attack on ~><}{\|`* :

Quote:

At the time, Trash and Germ attacked the -F, who was basically nearly defenceless (few warships ever built, believe had given up)... either Vux or I singlehandedly may have been able to save the -F, and if we had both it would have been slaughter (we were only 2 WMs and our ships were counterdesigns. Mostly beamers at that point, and my beamers would come into range of 1 enemy at a time and first strike destroy most in 1 shot). Diplomacy with the -F was difficult, and was concern that ~>< and Void would later gang up on Vux leaving Germ and Trash to gang up on me. Saving the -F would have cost 10% of my fleet from overgating losses (compared to 0% losses to just cruise in at warp 9 and take them out after). Vux was right beside so he could have chosen to save -F if useful.

multilis had in the mean while been "balancing the game", constantly giving techs to ~><}{\|`* (weap16 and con16 IIRC) and I feared military assistance as well, possibly even from Vux since ~><}{\|`* was giving elec scrappers to them. Vloz also had started sweeping my minefields, along with ~><}{\|`*.

Like multilis notes he or Vux might have singlehandedly saved the ~><}{\|`* and that was the reason that I wanted the Germ to help me since I expected Vloz/Vux ships to protect the ~><}{\|`* HWs . So I don't consider to be the Trash/Germ alliance to be a "gang up" because we could be facing 3 races ... 2 of them being WM! We also didn't know ~><}{\|`* was -f until our troops invaded their first HW. We expected at least some resistance of him ...

The first ~><}{\|`* HW was captured succesfully, my OAs dropped defenses to only 10 operated and my smart bombs killed most of his cols. Germ stromtroopers finished the job.
The first planet was mine to take, the second Germs. The attack on the second HW was succesfull as well but when the IS troopers arrived the Germ battle fleet got killed by both Void and Vux large and high tech fleets. The Germ fleet didn't have a chance against such superior power, the Trash battle fleet had retreated to the first ~><}{\|`* so it didn't got killed, but it wouldn't have changed the outcome ...
Void sent me a message we were now officially enemies. He cancelled his alliance with the Germs in a 5 year period, him attacking Germ that turn already was not intended but happened due some of the relation/battle plan settings, that never got solved. Though Vux attacking Germs _was_ intended ... so Void in fact already was acting against Germs. However it turned out that due to some miscommunications Void believed Germ was turned against him by me, while in fact he was still ally number 1 for the Germs. They solved their differences and got friends again.


The end of Trash :

Vux, Void, Vloz, ~><}{\|`* now were all against me however Void was still against Vloz. My only ally Germs was now toothless. My fleet couldn't match any of the enemy fleets alone so I considered it to be dead. It was just a matter of who would kill it, so I sent it to my HW so at least _I_ would be the one with all the salvage. I also uploaded all iron from the first ~><}{\|`* HW and sent it to my first HW.

Quote:

Trash only faced my warships 1 on 1 over his HW and he lost. Mine were natural counterdesign and WM outdoes CA in dreadnaught era. I got bit of help in bombing from others, but was pain in butt, would have been easier to just built the right bombers and done by self from start.

It turned out that Vloz reached orbit of my first HW as first, he had the "honour" of reducing my ships to the salvage that I could handle on my junkyard. Void arrived in orbit of the first ~><}{\|`* HW and at a warp9 from my HW in the same turn as Vloz in orbit of mine, so he was one turn late.

Knowing Vloz was paranoid about the Void SS and after Void and Germs became friends again I suggested to the Void that he would send his fleet in orbit of my HW to have a chance to kill the Vloz fleet (at that moment inferior to the Void battle fleet), else the paranoid Vloz would get all the minerals from my HW and use it against Void since he seemed to dislike SS the most.
Void did but Vloz retreated into DR minefields where Void couldn't follow him.

The turn the Void/Vux killed the Germ fleet I knew that not just my fleet but my entire race would die, no way I could face all those more or less combined enemies, and no way I would try to talk to keep my race alive, that was not how I wanted to play, diplomacy already had been a too large part of the game. Being in their place I would totally finish off any race that got his battle fleet defeated, just as I had planned to completely destroy all ~><}{\|`* ships and colonists, no talking, no mercy, no chit chat over a cup of coffee.

Quote:

I had offered to let Trash keep one of his HWs, ...

Indeed you did, my race took that as an insult (that would be one of the comprosises I was talking about), Trash never responded, hoping you got the message. And seems like you did, you finally got some of what I had hoped was the spirit of the game and started killing me off.

Quote:

... he was up to 3 after gang up on -F race, but he was toast after I successfully took out his fleet, then dodged the SS suprise gangup help for him, then in turn organised a gangup on the SS. (Couldn't stop Trash iron horde from going to Germ).

I was toast the minute the Germ fleet died.
Like you said bombing didn't went well, it went very very sloooooow. I was able to destroy (bases don't leave salvage) all of the iron (from the first ~><}{\|`* HW and from my dead fleet, that was a lot!) on the HW you were bombing with several races. You'd indeed better bombed me more quickly. I also didn't even bother to fix the battle board postions so my bases would have a shot at your bombers, Trash was beyond diplomacy and awaiting death as a reward.
The iron from my second HW went to Germs, figured they might be able to use it since they would live a bit longer.

Quote:

Germ offers Vux (then strongest player) to get support of him, Trash and Void against me and DR... 4 on 2, to supposedly crown Vux as supreme leader.

Don't remember that part, or it was outside my knowing ... by that time Real Life had taken it's toll ...

Quote:

Then 24 hours later after Vux refuses he is complaining about "big alliances". (At that time Germ could nearly match Vux in firepower from minerals he was given or took)

Heh, big alliances were always a terror lurking beyond the horizon ...

Quote:

Game was into 80+ years, Vux wanted to move on, everyone else was neutral to xcontinuing. We followed DR suggestion to send all our fleets into one spot, I got lucky and won despite missing sending my biggest stack in.

"Moving on" came up ealier as well, when it first showed that relations were getting to intermingled (or what's the word?) ... Hence the relation restrictions in the new game ...

Heh, started this reply at 8.30 am, it's now 3.45pm ... wrote a few sentences every 15 minutes, so if things seem out off order ...

mch

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A quick update before having dinner:
donjon will most likely not do the setup this time, he's busy till half September and I'd like to start sooner (as soon as I get 8 players and let's hope that doesn't take that long ), so far there are 6-7 slots filled ...

regards,
mch

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Hi!
RL says I can play, so count me in.

Micha wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 15:54

There will be a restriction in relations! ... For now it will be something like "all enemy except for one friend" (other possibilities are for example "no friends" or "one friend and one neutral").

Anything new here? I'm asking because I'd design a bit differrent race with an ally than without any.
BR, Iztok

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iztok wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 09:45

Hi! RL says I can play, so count me in.

Great! Welcome.

iztok wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 09:45

Micha wrote on Thu, 11 August 2005 15:54 There will be a restriction in relations! ... For now it will be something like "all enemy except for one friend" (other possibilities are for example "no friends" or "one friend and one neutral"). Anything new here? I'm asking because I'd design a bit differrent race with an ally than without any.

I think we'll go with "all enemy", multilis noted that with friend+neutral the same situation as in TWW could occure, one friend might be interesting but "all enemy" might cut down more MM (less mails and no coordination with the other race).

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 18 August 2005 10:40

Relations will be limited to all enemy. (no trading, no working together, ...)

That's fine
When and where do I send my race file?

Andreas / wizard

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[Updated on: Thu, 18 August 2005 12:22]

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