Storm wrote on Tue, 08 February 2005 12:49

Secondly - If you kill an AR starbase... and drop people on the planet in the same turn... your colonists settle the planet without a colony module. You shouldn't be able to do this, should you? Is this a bug?

Ptolemy wrote on Tue, 08 February 2005 15:21

The AR issue is new - I haven't heard of this one. I will test it and if it is indeed a bug it will be added to the known cheats list. Ptolemy

Well....

Using registered Stars! version J.

I'll try and scour my previous AI games to see what the circumstances were surrounding my mineral-stealing...

The AR issue is a definite.
The only thing you have to remember is that the dropping fleet, and the attacking fleet (which destroys the starbase) arrive at the same time. I guess that's a waypoint issue?

I don't know if it can be done in games against players, but it certainly works against AI ARs. It never occurred to me that it might be a bug... when I started playing, that was "just the way it worked". The other bonus, of course, is that you can get tech from the ARs this way...

Yay! Did I find a bug? Do I get points? Do points make prizes?


[Mod edit: split off the AR popdrop part from the "Freighter Anomalies" thread and added the quotes]

[Updated on: Tue, 08 February 2005 09:43] by Moderator

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Storm wrote on Tue, 08 February 2005 15:34

The AR issue is a definite. The only thing you have to remember is that the dropping fleet, and the attacking fleet (which destroys the starbase) arrive at the same time. I guess that's a waypoint issue?

Popdrop has to be WP1 indeed.

Quote:

Yay! Did I find a bug? Do I get points? Do points make prizes?

Sorry to inform you this is known for quite some time, a quick search on the newsgroup (rec.games.computer.stars) shows 2002, but possibly and probably even sooner when you would search deeper.

mch

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Damn and blast.
If only I'd found Stars! three years earlier!!

Besides being robbed of the warm glow that comes from helping fellow members of the community out...

...it looks like I'm forever doomed to be a Civilian.

Still, it's not a bad life... I'm less likely to get killed in combat, and nobody harasses me in the supermarkets...

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Hi!

mazda wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 12:20

Maybe because with an AR it is the other way around. i.e. it is no base -> no pop instead of no pop -> no base. The logic for an AR that translates no base into no pop must be in a different place. And it is in that gap between there not being a base (so you can pop drop) and there being no pop (so you can't pop drop) that WP1 unload occurs.

Any planet bombed out of pop can be WP1 pop-droped, not only AR's. That's a (known) error in Order of events, but James McGuigan in charge of StarsFAQ didn't correct it yet (probably never will). I've mailed him this and two other minor issues one year ago, but he looks like lost for community.
BR, Iztok

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....and, of course, questioning the whole validity of colony modules...

If a planet has already been colonised.. providing you haven't bombed the cr@p out of their buildings, just ship the people down to the surface, and worry about the wallpaper later...

Of course, if the previous occupants have been devious, they'll have burned all the instruction booklets and documentation for all their kitchen appliances, so you'll be forced to spend weeks having their scientists work on all the leftover technology, or else be prepared to take a Galleon for a spin, in order to pop into the nearest intergalactic branch of Comet...

I had a point to make somewhere.
I think it's gone missing...

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mazda wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 13:18

So why is it only considered a bug for AR ?

A few months ago a Stars! player was accused of cheating because he bombed a world flat but still took the planet without a colonizer ... the invading player asked me for help to proof he did nothing out off the ordinary. I don't remember all details, I think the case was "dismissed", the invaded player didn't know this was a long existing bug, but once clarified he accepted the exsistence of it ...

I think for AR it's just harder to accept since AR colonists themselves have never touched the ground, and you would be invading the base in orbit ... therefor it has more a bug "feel" than with planetary races ... Even more : AR can't do the same ...

Quote:

Doesn't this get into a hypothetical discussion of what is left on the planet after you have killed all the colonists ?

If by that you mean wreckage/artifacts than IIRC you can not get tech this way ... which would be a good compensation to the bug.
But I could be wrong, has been a while since I checked that ... So please correct me if I'm wrong.

mch

[Updated on: Wed, 09 February 2005 07:46]

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[Updated on: Wed, 09 February 2005 08:59]

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mazda wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 14:58

No, I was referring to the other point you made, in that it felt *more* wrong against an AR because they don't *touch* the surface. i.e. even after you have killed every colonist and destoyed every installation on a planet then there is still something *left*, the planet is still *fit*, for colonisation. Whereas against an AR once you kill the base then there is nothing, because there never was anything in the first place.

Ah ok, now I understand.

Quote:

I find this a rather weak argument put forward as a "real world" explantion as to why you can, in these circumstances, pop drop a world after all the pop has gone.

Well, it's indeed a weak argument, there shouldn't be anything left (beside *maybe* factories and mines) after the pop is dead ... Hey! A CA with OAs in orbit would even wreck the planet itself!

Either a planet with no pop left should be the same as a planet that has never been colonized OR after once been colonized it should always be possible to just drop pop on it, and not only in the same turn as you bombed it, or for AR the same turn as you kill the base ....

Hm ... maybe the true nature of the bug is just that? Dropping on an empty world without a "constant" (not looking at the AR part now) ... ? Dropping on a colonized but now empty world is only possible in the same turn that all pop dies ... if the pop is dead for a year it's no longer possible ... It should either be always or never.
Or would one consider the decay within a year of whatever it is that makes colonisation possible, as the reason for that?

And why can you drop on a populated world without needing a colonizer part? You're dropping your cols straigth into a possible hostile enviroment! Immense high levels of radiation, gravitational forces that tear your troops apart, temperatures that freezes or boils their blood ... but hey, that's ok because someone (something?) is already living there and they're ok with that ...

So what's the use of a colonisation module?

Quote:

Maybe the consequences of not allowing a pop drop against zero colonists are worse. (e.g. WP1 invasion the same turn as you bomb becomes a lot more tricky)

I wouldn't mind that you could not popdrop zero cols, more "realistic" and it opens a bit more tactics, now the defender has an extra chance to slow down his nemesis. Next to shooting down the bombers you can also try to snipe the colony ships ...

mch

[Updated on: Wed, 09 February 2005 10:29]

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Carn wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 22:23

Wait, bombing a planet clean and immiediately taking it is considered cheating?

No, it's considered artillery support.
Works a lot better than capturing it first and then bombing, anyhow.

I can't see how it could be considered cheating. It's a valid military tactic.

[Updated on: Thu, 10 February 2005 02:00]

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Staz wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 20:43

Micha wrote on Wed, 09 February 2005 15:26 So what's the use of a colonisation module? The col module contains some basic supplies to keep the colinists alive until they can get proper infrastructure set up.

I can buy this part.

Quote:

If you pop drop an existing planet you can make use of what was there from the original inhabitants, so you don't need one. If you bomb a planet, everything deteriorates so that after a year there is nothing usable left, but in that first year you are OK.

I can agree with the one year decay ... however how can you life of the supplies of a completely different specie?

Quote:

If it was an AR planet you can salvage stuff from the wreckage of the starbase that fell to the surface, but again it all deteriorates after a year.

Well, problem with that is that there would be very little left. In fact you can't get tech from shooting down a starbase and it leaves no minerals on the surface after it's destruction!
So for popdropping an AR it still looks more like a bug ...

mch

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Micha wrote on Thu, 10 February 2005 07:46

Quote: If it was an AR planet you can salvage stuff from the wreckage of the starbase that fell to the surface, but again it all deteriorates after a year. Well, problem with that is that there would be very little left. In fact you can't get tech from shooting down a starbase and it leaves no minerals on the surface after it's destruction! So for popdropping an AR it still looks more like a bug ... mch

Only if you try and construct a real explanation.
If you simply accept there is a rule that you can pop drop a planet the same year it is wiped out then there is no problem. No PRT contradiction.

ARs don't pop drop do they ?
They need to build the Fort before they can live there.
And they can't do that until the planet is uninhabited.
So that leads to "can you colonise/build that fort the same turn that you make a planet uninhabited" ?

So we have :-
After WP1 drop the planet is definitely still inhabited.
At WP1 colonisation what is the situation ?
By WP1 load the planet must be flagged as uninhabited (a WP1 load doesn't make a planet uninhabited).

The checking for removal of starbase/defences when pop goes to 0 is a separate event and is done in more than one place, but not after WP1 load it would seem.

A last question.
What happens if a ground battle exactly wipes out every colonist ? Is the planet uninhabited next turn ?

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[Updated on: Thu, 10 February 2005 22:56]

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Quote:

Now if you are saying that pop dropping against zero pop is dodgy against any PRT then that is a valid point. But an awful lot of people do it, perhaps without even realising.

To me there's still a difference:
If you successfully bomb a world so that there's no pop on the planet, chances are there would still be damaged equipment, partially standing buildings, useable rubble, etc. and the scenario would be even better if you used smart bombs.
Whereas if you destroy an AR base, there was nothing built on the planet to start with, so there's no remnant equipment to be acquired when landing on the surface.

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So in effect you gain less, because there's no installations at all there to use.

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Quote:

So in effect you gain less, because there's no installations at all there to use.

Exactly, and that's why you should need to utilise a colonisation module.

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Steve1 wrote on Fri, 11 February 2005 03:55

Quote: Now if you are saying that pop dropping against zero pop is dodgy against any PRT then that is a valid point. But an awful lot of people do it, perhaps without even realising. To me there's still a difference: If you successfully bomb a world so that there's no pop on the planet, chances are there would still be damaged equipment, partially standing buildings, useable rubble, etc. and the scenario would be even better if you used smart bombs. Whereas if you destroy an AR base, there was nothing built on the planet to start with, so there's no remnant equipment to be acquired when landing on the surface.

But that's merely you making a guess at what happens when a race colonises a planet.
You are thinking of it from a human viewpoint.
AR obviously do use the surface, to mine, terraform and who knows what else.
Who knows what shape the other PRTs take ?
To assume that anything that they might use in order to exist on a planet is usable by every other race in the galaxy, except one, seems ridiculous.
However, the game mechanics do insist that you can take over a planet used by any other race, as long as you do it the same turn.
And the game mechanics also say that if you leave a planet empty for a turn then it becomes unusable.

I can see your viewpoint. But I can also see this viewpoint.
And I don't see why you can say one is wrong - a cheat or a bug - and the other one valid.

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