Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Advanced Torpedos
| Advanced Torpedos |
Mon, 29 November 2004 17:25  |
|
 Neverborn |
 | Crewman 3rd Class |
Messages: 6
Registered: October 2004 | |
|
Relatively new to Multiplayer, was wondering what uses the Epsilon/Rho/Upsilon torpedos have. With the aid of Super Computers it seems like Missiles simply do so much more damage. Is it because with the same super computers torpedos are less susceptible to jamming?
In that case if your enemies are packing jammers on their BBs why wouldn't you then counter by making beam ships?
[Updated on: Mon, 29 November 2004 17:29] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Advanced Torpedos |
Mon, 29 November 2004 18:18  |
|
|
|
Torps IMO become more useful as ship sizes come down (and where extra cost of bunch of computers adds up more), or for specialty ships where you want jammers rather than battle computers in the electrical slots.
Examples:
Destroyer with a gattling and epsilon torp can both clear minefields and counter the enemies destroyer/frigate minesweeper.
Cruiser with torps can be gatable without any damage, can be useful in complex battlefield with 10+ different hot spots to possibly gate to and wanting to keep enemy guessing by gating every turn.
Torp based light sniper either with cloaks or paired with an overcloaker might be useful to teach enemy who doesn't protect well his non-warships.
Battle ship loaded with jammers and torps might be more effective against certain missile boat heavy fleets.
...
As a side note as pointed out be others, alpha torps can be useful in the later game as chaff that backs away from beamers.
IMO, an alternative in germ crunch is to use cheaper battle computers (such as regular) in some cases with older (jihad) missiles. Takes out around same amount of chaff as cheap advanced torps, with more kick against poorly jammed ships.
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| | |
| Re: Advanced Torpedos |
Tue, 30 November 2004 01:40 |
|
| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
|
| Neverborn wrote on Mon, 29 November 2004 23:25 |
Relatively new to Multiplayer, was wondering what uses the Epsilon/Rho/Upsilon torpedos have. With the aid of Super Computers it seems like Missiles simply do so much more damage. Is it because with the same super computers torpedos are less susceptible to jamming?
In that case if your enemies are packing jammers on their BBs why wouldn't you then counter by making beam ships?
|
Don't know if i calculated correctly(jam 66% for 3 jammers 30, 6 jammers 30 jam 88%, often on nubian):
Jamming 88%, comp maxed, arm:
(0.3+(0.7*(100-88)))*525= 201.6 damage per arm, 403.2 if shields down.
Jam 66%, comp max, arm:
(0.3+(0.7*(100-66)))*525= 282.45 damage per arm, 564.9 if shields down
Jamming 88%, 3 battle nexi, means comp 88%, omega(prize corection just a guess, torps cost 20% less than nubs and need less comps, but hull cost etc. are same, around 1.2):
(0.75*(0.25*(88-88)))*389 = 291.75 damage per omega, price corrected 350.1.
Jamming 66%, 3 battle nexi, means comp 88%, omega:
(0.75*(0.25*(88-66)))*389 = 313.145 damage per omega, price corrected 375.774.
(Anyone thinking i calculated correctly?)
As you can see just looking at the damaga per cost(of course dependant on what you lack) torps do better with 88% jamming, while with 66% jamming it depends on the depletion speed of enemy shields.
Further differences are of course gateability, range(can be good or bad) and chaff attractiveness.
Beamer are only better with we24 or we26 weapons, but then the range 1 or 2 can cause more rounds of none firing than toprs, especially if enemy ships are any/any/disengage.
Carn
(added to add: my advice about comps, missle, torps and jammers were about heavy ships and ignoring the fact that of course chaff is better defense to missles than jammers. On skirmishers or special ships it could be good to use torps without comps, missles without comps is always bad)
[Updated on: Tue, 30 November 2004 05:54] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Advanced Torpedos |
Tue, 30 November 2004 04:12 |
|
| Carn |
| Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
|
| Micha wrote on Tue, 30 November 2004 09:15 |
| Neverborn wrote on Mon, 29 November 2004 23:25 |
Is it because with the same super computers torpedos are less susceptible to jamming?
|
IIRC you can't jam below the base accuarcy level. So heavy jamming will drop missile accuracy to their base of 20-25 (? no Stars! at hand so just guessing) while torps keep their rather high base of 60-80 (? again guessing) ...
mch
|
Jamming can reduce below base accuracy.
Jamming and computers both calculate a percentage value (1-((1-comp/jammer value)**number of comps/jammers)) and these percentages are substracted from another and the resulting percentage is used to calculate real accuracy((1-abs(result))*base acc, if jammers are more, (abs(result))*(1-base acc)+base acc).
E.g. If you got 3 Nexi, you have computing power of (1-(1-0.5)**3)=87.5%. Jamming can range from 0 to 95, so the substraction result can be between -7.5%(full jamming) to 87.5%(no jamming).
Hit accuracy of arms, then ranges from (1-0.075)*0.3=27,75% to ((0.875)*(1-0.3))+0.3=91.25%. Jamming 66% gives hit accuracy of 45.05%, jamming 88% gives 30%.
Hit accuracy of torp ranges from (1-0.075)*0.75= 69.375% to ((0.875)*(1-0/75))+0.75=96.875%. jamming 66% gives 80.375%, jamming 88% gives 75%.
With 6 nexi:
If you got 6 Nexi, you have computing power of (1-(1-0.5)**6)=98.4%. Jamming can range from 0 to 95, so the substraction result can be between 3.4%(full jamming) to 98.4%(no jamming).
Hit accuracy of arms, then ranges from (0.034)*(1-0.3)+0.3=32,38% to ((0.984)*(1-0.3))+0.3=98.88%. Jamming 66% gives hit accuracy of 52.68%, jamming 88% gives 37.63%.
Hit accuracy of torp ranges from (0.034)*(1-0.75)+0.75= 75.85% to ((0.984)*(1-0/75))+0.75=99.6%. jamming 66% gives 83.1%, jamming 88% gives 77.725%.
As you can see damage with caps can differ more than a factor of 3 by jammers, while torps only give 1.5.
With arms it can be a good idea to even go from 66% to 88% jamming, while its irrelevant for toprs.With toprs its a question if jamming itself realy pays, if there is something else useful to pu to the slots.
With arms it brings between 10-25% more damage to use 6 nexi instead of 3, so its a good idea. With torps going to 6 nexi is a waste of germ.
As a rule 6 nexi on caps, 3 nexi on torps, against arms 3 or even 6 jammer 30, against torps 3 or none, depending on cost, slots etc.
Always comps on missle or torp ships, if no comp on ship, jamming will directly reduce damage(e.g. 66% jamming gives 0.34 * base acc, so reduce damage by 66 %).
Carn
Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
| |
| Re: Advanced Torpedos |
Tue, 30 November 2004 14:36 |
|
| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
|
Hi!
| Carn wrote on Tue, 30 November 2004 07:40 |
Jamming 88%, comp maxed, arm:
(0.3+(0.7*(100-88)))*525= 201.6 damage per arm, 403.2 if shields down.
|
No objection, just a clarification:
100.8 damage to shieds and 100.8 to armor, 403.2 to armor when shields're gone. Same with Omegas, but without double armor damage.
In the late game, when there are jammed nubs with lots of shields I'd vote for Omegas, as I could put 9 into a nub (less germ needed for given FP) and still retain low costs gateability. Those I'd use for kills through full shields or for attrition with retreat order.
Withoud jamming on opponent's designs (quite often in very late game) I'd use 6 ARMs (gateable), 9 or more (risk-gateable) only in med/small uni (more travel, less gating).
My 
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Tue, 30 November 2004 15:02] Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
| Re: Advanced Torpedos |
Wed, 01 December 2004 06:00 |
|
| Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
|
I did some tests a while ago to find out whats better on nubs, ARMs or Omegas. Dont remember the numbers, but found that Arms are better. IIRC with 3 jammers30 ARMs simply do more damage, so you force your enemy to use 6 jammers, taking one of his slots and making his nubs 33% less powerful in other fields. Also when shields are gone they are better anyway.
Still there are reasons for torpedos. Assuming there is no chaff, then the same design with torpedos has a higher initiative, and without chaff first shot wins in pre-nub battles.
If there is chaff, then one basic trick is to give any/any/disengage orders to your missleboats, so you shoot his fast beamers while chaff is out of range in the first turn.
If you fight WM or the enemy has fast chaff (I like to have some single-sapper-DDL7 frigate move 1.25) then torpedos are better because you shoot at his 2.25 move beamers and even "fast" chaff is still out of range, while missles do hit them and not the beamers.
And - finally - in some designs (BBs with no jamming and frigate chaff) the BBs have higher accuracy than chaff. As double damage makes chaff more attractive then shielded BBs with torps you can achievet his effect more likely...
And - one more thing - if the MT brings the megapolyshell, then in the BB time most BBs will be highly jammed anyway, and until nubs there is no use in rockets and you are always on the better side with torps 
hope this helps, just a few quick thoughts
Robert
2b v !2b -> ?Report message to a moderator
|
|
|
|
Goto Forum:
Current Time: Fri May 03 04:32:59 EDT 2024
|
Members
Search
Help
Register
Login
Home
)
(must be getting old) 