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FF Wed, 15 January 2003 21:59 Go to next message
Ron is currently offline Ron

 
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(Containing quote(s) from posts scattered around the forums before the PRT forums were setup.)

jeffimix, in The Academy "Your Favorite Race"

I still like IS to some extent.... good economy with all sorts of toys, I think best horde frigates in the game.

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icon12.gif  Re: FF Fri, 17 January 2003 00:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
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Yes, Jeff. The classical FF meatgrinder - regenerating Croby shields, two or three bazookas (or against range-1 DD's, Bludgies are wicked as well)...
Hint: always use Regenerating Shields with an IS. Personally I like RS with everything, but the swift QS IS gets a bigger advantage than most anyone - only WM battlecruisers and dreads gain comparably.

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Re: FF Mon, 27 January 2003 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Apelord is currently offline Apelord

 
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And you need to design High defense capacbility ships with IS races. Weapons heavy designs are not as cost effective due to the 25% higher weapons cost for IS races. Better for an IS to go for the 'very hard to kill' versus the 'high firepower' ship designs...


"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George Patton

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Re: FF Mon, 27 January 2003 14:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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Get a nub and fill it with equal parts deflectors, regen sheilds and jammer 50's. Crack on a single laser on the front.

That about it apelord?? lol

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Re: FF Tue, 28 January 2003 00:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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ROFL


I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: FF Tue, 28 January 2003 17:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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Its true that the weapons cost 25% extra for IS. However with a jammer 50 its hard to resist replacing now unused nubian slots with more weapons. I wonder if anyone has tested highly armored and jammed nubians vs. the usually 6 or so slots of weapons variety, note test jamming nubians against missiles nto lasers Razz .


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Re: FF Tue, 28 January 2003 18:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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jeffimix wrote on Tue, 28 January 2003 17:51

Its true that the weapons cost 25% extra for IS. However with a jammer 50 its hard to resist replacing now unused nubian slots with more weapons. I wonder if anyone has tested highly armored and jammed nubians vs. the usually 6 or so slots of weapons variety, note test jamming nubians against missiles nto lasers Razz .


Highly armored nubians??? 6 or so slots of weapons??? freakyboy's design came closer to being usefull Wink

BTW better to test the design in real battle conditions, so mixed beamers/missiles/chaff, not just one enemy type, if like you suggest I would test the design against missile nubs I just would add a few thousand chaff Wink

regards,
mch

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Re: FF Wed, 29 January 2003 08:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
overworked is currently offline overworked

 
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jeffimix wrote on Tue, 28 January 2003 17:51

Its true that the weapons cost 25% extra for IS. However with a jammer 50 its hard to resist replacing now unused nubian slots with more weapons. I wonder if anyone has tested highly armored and jammed nubians vs. the usually 6 or so slots of weapons variety, note test jamming nubians against missiles nto lasers Razz .


My last/only high-tech IS race was the Icky Things in one of Xdude's monster games. I basically ended up with three main Nubian hull designs (not counting my skirmishers), and I built a *lot* of them since I was opting for the a "quantity has a quality all it's own" approach and hard a large empire to handle.

All part references are to "stacks"; i.e. 3x if you actual #. And these are my approximate recall of the designs.

Beamer (Shoggoth class)
1 TS-10
2 CPS (this race had RS LRT)
1 Jam50
2 AMP
3 Energy Cap
4 Beam Deflector

Missile (something-Chthuluish class)
1 P16 ram
2 CPS
1 Jam50
3 ARM
3 Nexi
1 M-jet (enough for speed 2.5)
2 Beam Deflector

Torpedo
1 P16 ram
2 CPS
2 Jam50
2 Omega
3 nexi
1 M-jet (enough for speed 2.5)
2 Beam Deflector
[note: this design weighed 310kt and was highly gatable]

You'll note that these ships are "weapon light" and arguably sub-optimal (especially the missile ships) for the computer Germ costs. However, en-masse they were formidable - and my goal was to not fight battles given even numbers; but to bring more ships with a lot more total dp into play given the same approximate iron cost.

- Kurt



Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho Marx

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Re: FF Fri, 31 January 2003 16:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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IS frigate swarming....

is it better to use 1 croby sharmour and 1 beam weapon in large numbers

or

2 croby and 3 beamers in slightly less numbers

or

Use the fielded kelarium with the same effect as above?

I think the second is better. 2 croby sharmours allow for better survival if hit my missile/torpedo ships which normally tear apart sheilded frigates because of the low hull armour. I've discovered range 3 croby frigates can cause lots of headaches for an opponent. They are light and will as such move last... meaning the range advantage will always apply (provided with a good engine anyway) and the only way to get past the range is with missiles/torps... which aren't as strong as we'd like against croby targets.

Also how does anyone/everyone feel about the Minigun? I personally love it. Played a duel with a friend about 2 years back with an IS against an SD. The minefields and his beta destroyers got ripped up by the minigun/croby frigates... until he churned out range 3 phaser bazookas they croby/mini was great.

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Re: FF Fri, 31 January 2003 17:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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I think as much equipment on one ships as possible is better (2/3) since you pay less overhead for hulls and engines.


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Re: FF Sat, 01 February 2003 03:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
zoid is currently offline zoid

 
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I too agree, with both of you. You don't get much out of having an extra ship with half the goodies in this case, since the base hitpoints of the frigate is only 45. Best save the cost of the extra hull and engine and get as much use as possible out of one hull instead. I can see the other side if we're talking nubians with 5000 armor base, but not frigates.

I also discovered the croby/minigun frigates are WONDERFUL early ships. Can any other prt at the same tech level make ships as good as those? I don't think so. You've gotta love that combination.



I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math? Confused Ummm, sure! Nod I do FREESTYLE math.

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Re: FF Sat, 01 February 2003 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jeffimix is currently offline jeffimix

 
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That's why they're so well liked, they make an extremely effective early ship (you can build them and for go any weapons research for a short while) and then with armor, they still hold up well. Followed by using them for chaff/normal sweeping once they lose mainline combat effectiveness.


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Re: FF Sat, 01 February 2003 12:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
freakyboy is currently offline freakyboy

 
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fuel mizer, croby sharmour and minigun is probably the longest lasting ship design I have ever come across.

Exactly as pointed out early game they are a VERY formidable force.

Mid game they sweep mines VERY well and cost so little you can split and lose a ship and save the fleet or just lose the whole fleet and it's no big deal.

End game they make good chaff.

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Re: FF Sat, 08 February 2003 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
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zoid wrote on Sat, 01 February 2003 03:14

I also discovered the croby/minigun frigates are WONDERFUL early ships. Can any other prt at the same tech level make ships as good as those? I don't think so. You've gotta love that combination.


Again depends on situation. I was fighting an SD very early. I did not have the Croby yet, nor frigates. But against and SD the best combo is 5 DDs with 2 miniguns each, and one 60 point shield. This fleets can take 4 minefields hits (including detonations). Makes the best sweeper in the early game.

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Re: FF Mon, 31 March 2003 19:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Regarding CrobyShamor MiniGun FFs, do you not find that they don't have the speed/power that a MiniGun DD has? My experience has been that an early game stack of FF (say 9-12) with MiniGuns and the FM will take a lot of damage from beta torp DDs. OTOH, DDs with a MJ and Capacitor seemed to do a little better and be less expensive. Was I mistaken?

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Re: FF Mon, 31 March 2003 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Mon, 31 March 2003 19:04

Regarding CrobyShamor MiniGun FFs, do you not find that they don't have the speed/power that a MiniGun DD has? My experience has been that an early game stack of FF (say 9-12) with MiniGuns and the FM will take a lot of damage from beta torp DDs. OTOH, DDs with a MJ and Capacitor seemed to do a little better and be less expensive. Was I mistaken?


For the numbers here I will fill in the rest of your design, and say that you are using 3 miniguns. One in each weapons slot and one in the general slot, and no armor. This gives both designs the same number of weapons, and makes the easier to compare. (On some designs I put a shield in the central slot, especially for minesweepers. And I add may add in armor depending on what I have. Organic is very nice.).

Minerals cost: very close, DD taking slightly more Germ.
Resources cost: the DD a few resources more.

So I will note that if not for the fairly expensive cost of the Croby, the frigates would be much cheaper then the DDs. But the main point here is defense against Beta Torps, and even Delta Torps, so the Croby is needed.

Armor/shields.
DD: 200/0
FF: 175/120

(**** Note that this number is 175/168 with RS. The armor number is NOT cut in half, as it is not "armor".****)

So for roughly equal cost in resources and minerals, the FF has almost 100 more points of damage that it can take before dying.

And the shields come back every turn, so it is much more durable against any beam weapons the enemy might have. (Even better with RS.)

Now the DD does have some advantages. It is .25 faster in combat, and this might make a difference if attacking a base (possibly one less 'free' hit from the base), or if hunting down fast freighters or scouts. Also, with the Capacitor it does 10% more damage. But I prefer the 50% better armor/shield combo to a 10% better attack.

So I would pick the FF over the DD as a combat ship. For a minesweeper I would take the DD (with shield, maybe armor, and 2
...

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Re: FF Mon, 31 March 2003 21:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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Thanks Dancer. Looking at a testbed I have the following:

DD -
AlphaDrive8
MJ
Capacitor
3xMiniGun
Move = 1.75
Armor = 200dp

Cost = 99
Ir = 30kT
Br = 53kT
Gr = 19kT

FF -
AlphaDrive8
2xCrobySharmor
3xMiniGun
Move = 1.5
Armor = 175
Shield = 168 (RS)

Cost = 100
Ir = 33kT
Br = 53kT
Gr = 15kT

So the FF is more robust, but slower and not as powerful without the Capacitor. The cost is essentially a wash, though the 3 less Gr for the FF might make a difference in how many one could build a turn.

So I still wonder, is the .25 more speed and the Capacitor make the DD a better ship?

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Re: FF Tue, 01 April 2003 10:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Raindancer is currently offline Raindancer

 
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vonKreedon wrote on Mon, 31 March 2003 21:42

Thanks Dancer.

You are Welcome.

Quote:

So I still wonder, is the .25 more speed and the Capacitor make the DD a better ship?


Much of the answer to this will depend on what you are fighting.

Typically most players do not build a lot of Torps early in the game, saving the Ironium for bigger and better ships. So I would be a bit surprised if you are fighting a lot of Beta torps.

Remember (as stated in a previous posting I think) that IS is primarily a defensive race. It is generally better with this race to build ships that are strong on defense, and that can outlast an opponent. Part of this is the +25% cost for weapons, but also that IS has defensive armor, shields, and electronics.

An extra .25 on speed will get you an extra move every four rounds. So if your FFs are attacking a base, they will be in firing range after 3 rounds. Your DDs will be in range after 3 rounds. (Given that you are using Kill Starbase orders, and if there are no other players present in the battle...). If you can get the speed up to 2.25 then you can get there in 2 rounds. Speed 1.25 in 4 rounds, speed 1.0 in 5 rounds. The point is that against a base it may not do you any good. But this also depends on the range of the weapons in the base. If the base has range 2 weapons (so can fire three spaces), then you are actually better off with the FFs. They get 2 movement in the third round (instead if 2 in the second round like the DD) and the base will have one less shot at them.

There are other situations, like combat against enemy ships, then you need to take into account enemy designs and preferences. So it is tough to provide generic answers.

As far as the Caps are concerned, they do not make it worth the cost. In a testbed, send equal numbers of DDs and FFs (designed as per your posting) to fight each other. The FFs will win every time. First they have an advantage in initiative (FF 4, DD 3). Second the shields are stacked, and you are not likely to start lo
...

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Re: FF Wed, 02 April 2003 00:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tprescott is currently offline tprescott

 
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Another advantage of the FF design over the DD is the arrangement of the weapons.

The FF fires a stack of three weapons at once, and will start destroying stacked ships sooner as it will require less distributed armor damage to reach the point that 3 times the advertised weapon damage exceeds armor remaining per ship in the stack

DDs in effect fire three individual weapon shots per turn. Excluding the capacitor effects, the total damage inflicted is the same but distributed armor damage to a stack must continue until the armor remaining per ship is less than the advertised damage of one weapon before you begin to destroy the ships.

So with DDs:

You have no shields, and therefore fewer combined damage points.
You will receive full damage from the entire enemy stack longer before you begin to reduce the enemy stack.

The combined effect means that the FF design is significantly more effective - unless there is some specific reason that the .25 speed difference is critical for success; possible, but usually not critical I think.

Tom

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Re: FF Fri, 30 May 2003 21:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
djhakase is currently offline djhakase

 
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Are Croby FFs still useful with high weapons tech?

Say if I have a Mark IV blaster. Or even the AMP or Disruptor. Does it ever make sense to dust off the Croby FF design and use it again?

Actually is it ever worth it to change the range, either 1 or 3?

And the MT beam toy, the Multi-Contained Munition. Does that work well on FFs?


[Updated on: Fri, 30 May 2003 21:46]




they made me do it

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Re: FF Sun, 01 June 2003 11:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Paladin is currently offline Paladin

 
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The problem at high weapons levels with Cromby Frigates is they are slow with no jamming. As missiles get more accurate and have larger warheads, the frigates become too easy to kill. BBs and DNs with good armour and shields that are much more advance than Cromby, can mow down hordes like wheat, then withdraw do to the slow battlespeed and short range of the horde. If you add an energy damper, it get's real ugly.

The horde will crawl across the Battleboard, and you'll lose one frigate per missile bay the enemy has per combat round. For example, 40 BBs with Jugs and 6 super battle computers, will kill 800 frigate per round. The BBs will fire 4 times before the frigates will so the horde owner will lose 3200 frigates prior to being able to fire. Or the BBs could just kill 1600 and disengage.

If the enemy has energy dampers, then the frigate cannot get in range within the 7 combat round limit of a battle. They would lose about 5K frigates and do no damage. Against advanced missiles, Cromby Frigates become real expensive chaff. Of course there is the possibility of crowding the baatle board with other races on such, but let's not get into that right now.

Paladin



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Re: FF Mon, 30 July 2007 05:50 Go to previous message
Soobie

 
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OK, I usually don't get FF croby mini tech until around 2416~2420 depending on what else I want at the time (like, usually I will get LF at around the same time, etc). Is this wayyyy too slow or OK?

I mean, this is clearly all too slow if I'm faced with a QS neighbour - I'd be toast!

If I go the simple FF+Baz/mini+moo cow or DD+Baz/mini+MJ+moo cow ... I get them A LOT earlier. Like around 2410 and can have decent numbers by 2420 to support the SB against someone elses horde if I'm not in offence.

So ... do I find a likely target and just start churning out the lesser FF and see what comes of it, or do I start building the things at around 2420 and not have decent numbers until the mid 20s, when it feels like they're getting old and slow anyway?

And how many croby FFs is a decent number anyway? 50? 100? 1,000? By when?

Cheers
S Smile

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