As mentioned by Micha I'll accept the idea and host the game.

Basic rules - no race can have ANY LRT's at all. You get what you're given!

So basically anyone who's interested then e-mail beejay***@***thefreakshow.org.uk without the stars in there (stars? gettit?) with your interest and I'll put your name down.

If someone on the forum would be nice enough to volunteer to check the races that would be wonderful, thank you.

Chaff allowed, fleet split allowed only by ship type (i.e. can split armed ships, freighters, miners, mine layers, scouts and bombers from each other but you CANNOT split armed ships up to dodge).

Distant start is for definate as is Accel BBS.

Space size is dependant upon interest but density will be normal. Galaxy no bigger than normal with 10 players.

1 alliance, 2 peaceful - all other races must be enemies. This will keep it interesting.

Winner is last race/alliance alive or until everyone has quit crying like little girls (the term "crying like a little girl" is not intended to insult or offend any girls of a smaller than average size and I apologise for anyone offended) that it's not fair.

Newbies welcome - but they may become fodder, so make sure this isn't your FIRST game.

I think thats about everything?

Oh yeah - it'll be hosted on Autohost because we love Ron so much - Ron the man who is also invited to play if he so wishes

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Quote:

Chaff allowed, fleet split allowed only by ship type (i.e. can split armed ships, freighters, miners, mine layers, scouts and bombers from each other but you CANNOT split armed ships up to dodge).

Not sure I understand this, do you mean that if you have a mixed fleet you can split off each type of ship in a different fleet but all the armed ships have to stay together?

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Space size is dependant upon interest but density will be normal. Galaxy no bigger than normal with 10 players.

No bigger than ?

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1 alliance, 2 peaceful - all other races must be enemies. This will keep it interesting.

Well, as you saw in my previous post I like relations to be more limited, like this you get stuck with a whole bunch of friends and nobody to fight against ... Games with ALL other players set to enemy are the best!!
One ally is nice though and more than enough, you can't get tech from two races in the same turn, so I consider 2 the max. Just my humble opinion ...

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Newbies welcome - but they may become fodder, so make sure this isn't your FIRST game.

I think newbies will definitely become fodder, this setup requires a little more skill than beginners usually have ...

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Oh yeah - it'll be hosted on Autohost because we love Ron so much - Ron the man who is also invited to play if he so wishes

I concur! Ron is the best!

kind regards,
mch

[Updated on: Wed, 15 January 2003 18:28]

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Splitting, if the enemy also splitted his fleet ALL your fleets will get targetted. There is a lot of debat about who gets the most interceptors, but EVERY fleet will get intercepted. If the fleeing fleets would be mixed (in contrary with your rule) it's all guessing for the pursuer how many armed ships he will use per intercepting fleet, but also the one who is running will have to try to guess ...
I'm not sure if the fleet dodge is still really that big of a bug ...
Hm, for instance, would this mean that I can _not_ split up a set of 5 minesweeping DDs which I _know_ will be intercepted the next turn? Who's to tell that I wasn't going to split them up anyway?

Player relations, with that many friends you can be surrounded by them, meaning you have to fight far away from your own worlds, not very comfortable ... I recently was in that situation, ships had to travel a looong way to get to the front.
Also, 10 players, 1-2 die/drop within 10-20 years, that's 8 players left, 4 are friends ... the others stay solo ... guess who has already lost? (Or at least has a huge disadvantage.) Unless those solo 4 bond together which they might not want simply because they want to try it on their own, they will be forced to start playing a style/game they don't want to play! Their fun is gone ... Have been there too.
And when the team of 4 have wiped out the 4 solo players the chance is very slim they will start fighting amongst theirselves, have seen that happening too many times.

True about the skills, also because some people underestimate themself or overestimate ...

kind regards,
mch

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I'm a veteran player with newbie skill who never gets better cuz I'm dumb and never learn, plus I can't do math!
Now, what was I going to say again? Oh yeah!
Can I play?
Can I, huh?
Can I, huh?
Can I?
I don't care if I'm fodder.
I'll be nice this time, too. No shooting scouts and stuff. Um, if I have to.
Hey, I have a better idea! Why don't we all just be mean to each other, no nicey-nicey slobbering and grovelling diplomats allowed! Just think of all the time you'll save on diplomacy!

PS: I love smilies

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freakyboy wrote on Wed, 15 January 2003 23:05

... and if he stuck to his guns (even though he didn't have any) ...

Hahaha! Shhh! I havn't told EVERYONE!

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[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2003 11:28]

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This is starting to look rather interesting. I have been holding out waiting on SSNG but am starting to go a bit nuts with the wait.

I don't want to play HE, PP, CA or JoaT. Hate the first two and the later two are too easy. Are you willing to accommodate choice but still try to get a lot of different races?

Other than that, the setup seems very good. Especially like the 5 day format with the increasing time between gens later in the game to permit negotiation and roll play. With all those enemies, a lot could be done in this area.

Paul

[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2003 10:58]

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Hm, AR will have a very hard time without ISB, not saying they can't live without it, but AR is not an easy PRT and this will only make it worse. Next to that no IFE (less fuel consumption) and no FM so crappy engines which means more pop dieing in transit because of longer journeys ...
Also the restricted number of friends is another disadvantage for an AR, they will have too many enemies from the start and will be considered the easiest victim even more than in other games.

PP with the most negative points and no LRTs to compensate ...

I must agree with pgarnold, CA and JoaT are too easy, wouldn't want to play them, and I'll never pick HE either.

Just let people play whatever they want (seeing your last post you are already willing to do that), the "no LRT" theme is enough, keep it pure and don't mix it with another theme ("being 10 different PRTs") ...

regards,
mch

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I like that schedule, just finished a game with 24h all the way, it was hell because towards the end I owned almost half of a medium universe
72h might be a little too much (afteral diplomacy might be minimal )... usually sticking with 3 gens a week (Mo-Tue-Fr for example) works better, it's nice to know how late the game will gen every time (unless all players are in, don't like a total strict schedule) ...

[Edit:] Oh, and I like the idea of getting all specs posted, when I host a game I encourage players to exchange passwords so they know what they were exactly fighting, they can learn more from it that way.

Quote:

A race can only have 1 alliance - all else enemies at war.

So no longer 1 friend and 2 neutral?

regards,
mch

[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2003 11:37]

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Micha wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 11:33

I like that schedule, just finished a game with 24h all the way, it was hell because towards the end I owned almost half of a medium universe

Looks like you should be the number one target at start?

Quote:

72h might be a little too much (afteral diplomacy might be minimal )... usually sticking with 3 gens a week (Mo-Tue-Fr for example) works better, it's nice to know how late the game will gen every time (unless all players are in, don't like a total strict schedule) ...

I tend to agree with Mica on this one. 3 times a week is optimal, once a game gets going, for negotiations and roll play. It can sometimes not be enough when things get really hot but it also helps to provide deadlines during negotiations. Worse is have the game slow down to much.

Quote:

A race can only have 1 alliance - all else enemies at war.

I would prefer the 1 ally and 2 neutrals.

Paul

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Quote:

Looks like you should be the number one target at start?

Better had kept my mouth shut

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I would prefer the 1 ally and 2 neutrals.

In the light of the above I now prefer all friends.
Nah, I could live with 2 neutrals,

regards,
mch

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freakyboy wrote on Thu, 16 January 2003 07:52

. . . theres currently no-one occupying ANY prt - so if you want one then get your interest e-mail ASAP.

Everything besides HE is pretty new to me so I'm fairly versatile.

I will not play an AR (because I can't figure it out) nor HE (see my most recent postings in the HE topic).

I'd rather not play PP (too expensive with no real gain that I can appreciate), but I might consider giving the PP another shot if it's desired for PRT diversity. I'll gladly fill the role of any of the remaining seven PRT's, though I have little or no experience with them in multi-player games.

My history: first game I played an IT in a huge universe (I shamefully confess that I bailed out of that game early thinking I hadn't any chance - poor etiquette, I know), second game a PP in a tiny sparse galaxy (Don't remember what happened to that game), JOAT in a small galaxy (I got eliminated first by the 3% tri-immune HE next door), and I've played HE every since.

Quote:

I would prefer the 1 ally and 2 neutrals.

Since diplomacy has never been my strong suit, I prefer all enemies. But, whatever!

[Updated on: Thu, 16 January 2003 18:46]

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Quote:

That the CA can't have TT won't close the gap up, they still will be a lot stronger than other races. And NOT allying with one is the most stupid thing you could do. If there is only one CA than the player which allies with him will be in the winning duo ... I usually play team games and if there is a team with no CA they are lost from the start, if there is only one team with a CA they have already won ...

Although much of what you say has truth, I disagree strongly with this statement. Racism has no place in Stars!
I recall more than a couple team games where CA opponents did not win.
I recall several alliance games where CA opponents did not win.
I recall many games where CA did not win.
Stars! has many variables that affect the outcome of the games. Two of the most important are experience and skill. Statements that one race is always dominant or it is stupid not to ally with CA are incorrect.
I am just finishing a game where an IT, JOAT, SS group just made a strong victory by surrender over a CA, JOAT, WM group. And the game is only in the 2460's. Frankly, I don't feel stupid at all having chosen my allies. So much for the dominant CA theory, eh?
"There is no gravity. The earth sucks." And PP's suck too.

[Updated on: Fri, 17 January 2003 10:36]

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Ok, I was a little bit thing too much black/white here, there are of course grey area's. True a CA will not _always_ make you win, but it's one of the best choices.
There are indeed a lot more factors that determine a game, agreed skill is one of the most important ones, allying with a newbie CA while other players are intermediate/advance is not a guarantee you will win.
Also _when_ you ally with a CA is important and when other the other alliances where formed. Or more super-normal factors like not meeting the MT that's giving 10 TLs while everybody does meet the MT ...
Or ecomonic models, if there is a -f neighbour hitting you as soon as he can than terra help of course comes too late ...

When winning comes down to who has the bigger economy (and that happens most of the time) and everybody has more or less equal skills than the best race you can ally with is a CA.

Of course when you get too big everybody allies against you ...

As for teamgames, I've never seen a team without a CA win, a CA is not only a very strong race itself but also gives an enormous boost to his teammates, not having a CA makes you waste much rersources in terra (not to mention the capacity you lose not having a TT CA) and against equal players you just gave yourself a huge disadvantage which is hard to make up with other stuff ...
Teams are by standard CA+IT+other, which is boring therefor when I host teamgames I ban CAs (sometimes even ITs).

Oh, and I will not always ally with a CA myself, even if I say it is stupid, I always try to make alliances in such a way that the game stays fun and interesting, like I will never help number one beating up the little guys even if that means I become the target of number one.
And then things of course change when I become number one myself ...

regards,
mch

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 17 January 2003 07:50

As i've mentioned- I'm open to suggestions. I think actually *if* played right and with the right ally an AR could do wonders in this kind of game. Yeah it's true they'll have some major problems to get past (esp. IFE) {snip}. AR's tech advantage can really come into it's own especially if they take cheap propulsion tech as everyone (bar IT and JOAT) will be running round with the warp 6 engine to start - AR could easily bump up to the warp 8 in no time flat.

I think the AR could be made playable IF you allow them to go with one LRT, ISB. Without that one LRT, they are doomed.

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I'll let anyone pick anything they want - including CA {snip} No LRT's cuts out alot of game variation but it makes the PRT choice MUCH more important.

Would like to suggest we allow ISB if one wants to play AR only. Otherwise, no LRTs for anyone. If this one exception is not made for AR, I don't think it will be played by anyone. Even with this one exception, AR will be very difficult (with no IFE). As far as the CA goes, my position is that if one shows up, I will do my best to make them the pariah of the Universe and kick their ass first.

Paul
The Destructor

[Updated on: Fri, 17 January 2003 12:20]

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OK, I am working on 5 different race designs but I need to know what the density will be for the universe. I know it will be Medium size. Could we do at least a "dense" universe? I would prefer a "packed" one with 10 players.

As soon as we resolve the density and the question on ISB for AR, I will be ready to submit a final race design. Yes, AR is one of the five and it looks very inviting but then I have never played AR in a real game so don't get your hopes up for some early cannon fodder.

Paul, (the Destructor)

[Updated on: Fri, 17 January 2003 13:29]

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 17 January 2003 16:51

We'll do a dense universe. And just to make (or break) a point *I SHALL* play AR just to see if such a thing can be done.

Always better to keep your PRT hidden as long as possible, giving it away even before the game starts ruins part of the fun for the others to figure it out (and of course puts yourself to a disadvantage). Knowing you are AR and not yet good at it you might have made yourself the first victim ...

Maybe again to black/white, sometimes it pays off giving out your PRT early, when you are SD for example, letting people know that, they sometimes decide it's better to stay away, OTOH sometimes you get the opposite effect and people want to kill you ASAP because later in the game it will be even more of a pain to stop you

regards,
mch

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