Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings")
 Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Fri, 29 October 2004 04:19  |
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 Robert |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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Well, now as we talk about non-popular LRTs, and BET is one of them,
maybe I should publish my results of some recent ultimate recycling
testings. (off topic - maybe move to another thread?)
So - we have seen BET can work, at least I believe your opinion is
worth thinking about and maybe trying it in the right universe 
UR has some qualities, too. Lets start from the quickstart point of
view: once I had my standard HG 12/9/16 factories with 19% growth
and tried to improve _early_ growth.
I tested the following things:
- improving growth to 20%
- factory costs 8
- factory efficiency 13
- 50 leftover points to factories
and
- picking ultimate recycling and scrapping early ships
to gain boost in very early factory builing
This works of course only if you got a few early ships that are
more or less useless (say IT, WM, JoaT...)
For the ones who dont know - the formula to calculate the resource gain is:
(p*s)/(p+s) where p is the planet's productivity in resources and s the resources
needed to build the ships being scrapped
So, lets have some numbers and see how starting worlds for my HG JoaT developed
in the first 7 turns:
_____HG__20%__cost8__eff13__lop__ur
2400___132__137__132__133__144__132
2401___171__180__174__174__186__174
2402___221__234__227__227__237__227
2403___284__302__294__292__302__294
2404___359__384__376__372__380__389
2405___453__488__478__472__476__494
2406___567__609__603__593__593__624
2407___696__725__747__733__726__769
So picking ultimate recycling gives a boost of 73 resources
in the first 7 turns compared to the standart HG, better than
anything else. (From 2407 on you usually start shipping pop
to other planets and stop putting everything into factories,
or run out of minerals and start to build mines... so this
is quite a relevant number!)
Still - the different improvements have different costs in the
race wizard, so lets continue with the math:
_____________HG___20%__cost8__eff13__lop__ur
netto gain____0____29____51____37____30____73
cost_________0____83____60____70____50____96
gain per cost__0__0,34__0,85__0,52___0,6____0,76
inc in %______0__4,16__7,32__5,31___4,31___10,48
Ok, compared to the cost setting factory costs to 8 is more efficient
You might also say that UR has no real advantages later, while factory
cost 8 still speed up growth on other planets, which is of course right.
So, when going for a quick start I like to pick a 1 in 10 hab scheme
with one immunity - means fewer, but better greens early, and lots of
yellows with high potential later - the funny part with it is, that
the early terraforming is _very_ efficient - up to 4% in planet value
for 1 step of terraforming. When assuming this hab scheme supports early
growth, and this is about growing early quickly, lets have a look how
UR can improve new colonized planets:
I took my JoaT again, colonized 2 similar planets with 200K pop each, left
lots of germanium and set the standard queue to factories first, then terraforming.
(both planets -3% planet value)
year____no scrap______scrap________improvement
x________149____________149________________0
x+1______170____________184________________10
x+2______192____________218________________26
x+3______217____________257________________40
x+4______245____________334(turns green)___89
x+5______257____________391________________134
x+6______257____________455________________198
x+7______322(turns green)529_____________207
x+8______361____________612________________251
x+9______410____________707________________297
x+10_____528____________809________________281
I scrapped 2 medium freighters each turn in the first 4 years,
costing 4*204=816 resources. After 10 turns the planet had
281 more resources than the planet without scrapping boost.
As the boosted planet has turned green 3 turns earlier it could
have been supported with more pop at that time, improving the growth
even more.
Still, just a nice to have and not that great, is it???
Assuming you have a lot of old designs around
...
[Updated on: Fri, 29 October 2004 04:40]
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Fri, 29 October 2004 20:38  |
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The use which I'd thought of for UR was for an HP race as a means to export resources to growing planets. if you can manage say 4-5 ships of varying resource costs..preferably high ger ships nd scrap them at the appropriate stages of a colony's development it can provide a very reasonable boost for the investment. more mm tho...but the HP's generally have less mm than most.
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Fri, 29 October 2004 21:27 |
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| Quote: |
The use which I'd thought of for UR was for an HP race as a means to export resources to growing planets. if you can manage say 4-5 ships of varying resource costs..preferably high ger ships nd scrap them at the appropriate stages of a colony's development it can provide a very reasonable boost for the investment. more mm tho...but the HP's generally have less mm than most.
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With UR you get up to 70% of the resources even if no starbase (but only 45% minerals them). So yes, does provide nice boost to HP in very beginning of curve.
UR can help fuel supply on new colonies... you scrap some of the transports, transfering their remaining fuel rather than sending everything back for another load.
UR can help slots as easier to flip from old ships into newer designs.
As far as war goes, beyond the already mentioned counterdesign advantage UR can help get those early starbases up in time for defence.
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Sat, 30 October 2004 09:39 |
|
| Robert |
| Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 393
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany | |
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| multilis wrote on Sat, 30 October 2004 03:27 |
With UR you get up to 70% of the resources even if no starbase (but only 45% minerals them). So yes, does provide nice boost to HP in very beginning of curve.
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Nope!
You always get (p*f)/(p+f) resources, regardles of starbase! only minerals double with a dock or better.
So even on an empty world you can nearly double the resource output,
but no more than that. I got a spreadsheet somewhere to calculate the most efficient scrapping, maybe I find it someday, but scrapping more than twice of the planet's production is stupid, and scrapping the same gives a 50% boost and quite ok...
Something like that...
Robert
[Updated on: Sat, 30 October 2004 09:40]
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Sat, 30 October 2004 12:16 |
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From help file... "you recover 90% of the minerals and 70% of the resources"
I was multiplying the resources by 0.7 and then applying the formula, trusting that the help file was right.
But it is wrong, you are right. You in theory can almost double resources using UR.
In practice I tended to scrap enough to add 10%-50% resources to a planet.
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Tue, 02 November 2004 09:25 |
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| Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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I have some point on HW ramp up with UR and HP.
JOAT has several starting designs, that are of limited usefullness, stalwart defender, armed scout, cotton picker and MF.
Standard HP fac settings is 15/7/21. Going from cost 8 to 7 costs 100, selecting UR when having 1 positive and 3 negativ LRTs costs slightly less(92?).
If the less useful designs can be scrapped soon(armed scout turn 0, stalwart turn 2-3, MF 2-3, cotton picker 6-8), the HW ramp up is actually slightly faster with cost 8 and UR as with cost 7.
Therefore, if Roberts observation about ramp up of new worlds with UR being faster than with cheap fac costs, it might be possible that a HP JOAT is better off with UR and cost 8, instead of cost 7.
Things might even better for a HP SD, that wants to hide his PRT, he has no use for the 2 mini mine layers and can scrap them a 50% resource increase in turn 6-8.
Mind that the exact effect is dependant on HW germ conc, as the UR resources help also with mine building and on low germ conc HWs more mines have to be build sooner.
Carn
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| Re: Non-popular LRTs : UR (Split from "Miniaturization musings") |
Tue, 02 November 2004 15:31 |
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| Quote: |
Therefore, if Roberts observation about ramp up of new worlds with UR being faster than with cheap fac costs, it might be possible that a HP JOAT is better off with UR and cost 8, instead of cost
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I have done both with HP HE (1/2500 pop production, leads to weaker beginner colonies than 1/1000 but faster to full strength).
First game was factory cost 5, no UR. Second game was factory cost 6, UR.
Early ramp up: the UR can give faster ramp up times if heavily micromanaged, but you pay a price in taking resources from fully built up worlds that otherwise would have gone to warships or techs. I would guess non-UR is bit stronger due to extra warship/tech free resources.
Later game the UR felt significantly stronger... better slot management and counterdesign. UR improves your robber baron resistance (can build mineral intensive ships that can be later scrapped).
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