Not being a Bab5 viewer, (No cable TV) I am not sure of the analogies, but I think I'm getting more credit here than I deserve. I think I'll hold my own against Matt, and look forward to the opportunity to meet him in a game again.

Still, It sounds as this is definitely for intermediate or better players at this point.
So where do we stand as far as numbers go?

Maybe I should get a race together, or at least find the one I was thinking of playing.

Kang

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Kang wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 13:16

I think I'm getting more credit here than I deserve. I think I'll hold my own against Matt, and look forward to the opportunity to meet him in a game again.

You and I both. However, you are much better than the average player, from what I remember. Also, so that that everyone else in the game doesn't paint me as a "Boogieman", I seem to recall that you felt I was no better than an intermediate player...

As to the count, it was posted as 13. Good enough. I'll finish testing and probably send in my race tonight or Sat.

-Matt

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[Updated on: Fri, 20 August 2004 16:34]

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Quote:

I was actually considering a slight variant of the race from that game, but now I'm not so sure it would be strong enough to fight off 5+ races. So I'll probably opt for something else.

Apologies Matt if my compliments of your abilites gave you cause for concern.
My thoughts on the matter are that if a whole lot of neighbours ganged up on you then it would give the neighbours of your attackers ample opportunity to gain their own bit of territory.

I recall a quote from someone on this forum saying something along the lines of: "My enemies enemy is potentially my friend" (that wasn't exactly it, but conveys the gist of it).

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SinicalIdealist wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 13:34

Damnit kang, I need to consolidate all experts or advanced players into one small packed or medium sparse game w/ 12-16 players!! If everyone keeps starting new games this will never work. (So basically I just keep trying to warp everyone else's game posts to my vision of an ideal game so I don't have to host it myself.) g.e. (Gakl)

Actually I was planning to post a new game when I came to this forum and found this post. As my plan was almost Identical to this game post I felt it would be counter productive.
The only major change was requesting advanced players for my game.
I would love to get my butt kicked by the experts again.

Kang

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mlaub wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 12:00

You and I both. However, you are much better than the average player, from what I remember. Also, so that that everyone else in the game doesn't paint me as a "Boogieman", I seem to recall that you felt I was no better than an intermediate player...

Matt,
Ive had my fanny kicked a few times since then, most recently in The Dark Ages III. As I recall your 7% 2I HE had so many minerals stockpiled that without Kevin Mackies "Happies" I would have been toast eventually.
I reevaluated my brash statement after viewing your position.
OK, I'll put my paintbrush away now.

mlaub wrote on Fri, 20 August 2004 12:00

As to the count, it was posted as 13. Good enough. I'll finish testing and probably send in my race tonight or Sat. -Matt

My race is sent for thirteen, I hope we are to 16 before it starts.

Kang the Meek:crazy:

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Kang wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 12:12

As I recall your 7% 2I HE had so many minerals stockpiled...

Actually, it was a 3i 4% HE. I thought no one would play a TT CA, for some odd reason, let alone a -f TT CA. It was also my first stab at that race...Then I end up in a corner, pinched between 2 TT CA's.

FYI- That game helped me get the kinks out, I won 2 of 2 other games with that same race. A medium and a Huge. The trick is to play it in a non CA game.

Sent my race in.

-Matt

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Is this game still slated as medium normal?

I highly recommend small packed or medium sparse to reduce overall MM. I just finished a medium normal, and that almost wore me out on all the MM. Too many planets==too much work. Also, you get to the action of the game. Ie. Why we all play the game. Much sooner. At the same time, you'll even hit nubians in a small packed. I haven't played a game that didn't hit near max tech since I was a noob (unless the game conditions ended the game pre-maturely--ie. game stops at year 60 w/ slow tech). You may have to submit a new race, but it almost always takes a week to get a game up on AH. Besides, games are always more fun w/ more players.

g.e./Gakl

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So Gakl, does this mean you are also in? This game gets better every day! But I think I'll look hard for a 3I HE....



Kang

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SinicalIdealist wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 18:00

Is this game still slated as medium normal? I highly recommend small packed or medium sparse to reduce overall MM.

I wouldn't play in a medium sparse or small packed with 13+ players. The game becomes more luck, than skill, at that point. To many OWW...and too close. Besides, the difference between a small packed and medium normal is only 48 planets. Divided by 13 players, it's a fairly trivial number.

If you think there is to much MM in a medium normal, with 13+ players...Then you should automate more stuff. I doubt I'll spend more than 25 minutes a turn for most of this game. My rule of thumb is 10 minutes per 25 breeder level planets in my empire. Double that, if I am at war.

Quote:

I haven't played a game that didn't hit near max tech since I was a noob

Really? It's rare for me. Last time I hit max tech in a game was a few years ago. Games always seem to end abruptly...

Are you playing in this game? I think we met in game once before. Didn't you sub for a SS in Bug2? I seem to recall your name from somewhere.

-Matt

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Kang wrote on Sat, 21 August 2004 18:54

So Gakl, does this mean you are also in? This game gets better every day! But I think I'll look hard for a 3I HE....

I'm thinking about it. I haven't really decided. I'm going away for labor day weekend, so I'd have to wait until after then to start a game.

mlaub Wrote Sometime before my post

I wouldn't play in a medium sparse or small packed with 13+ players. The game becomes more luck, than skill, at that point. To many OWW...and too close. Besides, the difference between a small packed and medium normal is only 48 planets. Divided by 13 players, it's a fairly trivial number.

I disagree completely. Small packed w/ 240 planets, gives 15 planets for each player on average with *16* planets. I shoot for 13->20 planets/player on average at most. Any more planets/player and you're just increasing MM.

1WWs are not viable in anything above 8/player outside of a tiny universe. QSs tend to work best for small/packed/distant games. You're usually shooting for 15-25k by 50 in such a game. Only 2 PRTs are not particularly advantageous in a small packed: AR and SS. In medium sparse, HE and PP would be weaker in a medium sparse. Some AR designs would be pretty competitive. I vehemently disagree on the 1WWs though. I would never even consider fielding a 1WW in such conditions.

g.e./Gakl

[Updated on: Sun, 22 August 2004 21:06]

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On AR: I've done AR in a medium sparse w/ 14 or 16 advanced+ players. 2-player team game. Ally was CA far away. Had 4 aggressive opponents on 4 borders. Fought aggressive wars the entire game, eventually making it into the top half of races still left. Didn't win, but smacked back some of the leaders.

My experience w/ 1WW vs. QS. QS usually hits 3-4k by 20, barely behind the 1WW. By 30, the QS should have 3-6 planets, and would have 1.5-2x what a 1WW would have.

On MM. I've managed to turn 15 worlds into a 2 hours of MM per turn, but that was w/ SD and I was holding off a whole team with about 10x my resources over a theater of about 800ly for 50 years. Keep in mind that when I face 16 planets on average, I tend to look at that as more like 32-64 for myself, no matter the opposition.

[Updated on: Mon, 23 August 2004 02:25]

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SinicalIdealist wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 01:05

On AR: I've done AR in a medium sparse w/ 14 or 16 advanced+ players. 2-player team game. Ally was CA far away.

As I said, maybe in a team game. Frank E and I once wiped 4 other teams in a Medium, and he was playing an AR. Team games help eliminate most of the issues of a AR, even if your partner starts across the map. I'm sure your teammate gave you tech, on a pre-arranged schedule.

I played a quasi-QS IT in our game, and supported Frank with minerals and tech to eliminate the mineral-tech crunch that a non-allied AR would face. It makes a _huge_ difference. An AR without that support is fairly easy pickens to a HG or QS until they get past that point. Usually that takes 40+ years. Your chances of surviving fall way off if you start losing colonies before that happens.

Quote:

My experience w/ 1WW vs. QS. QS usually hits 3-4k by 20, barely behind the 1WW. By 30, the QS should have 3-6 planets, and would have 1.5-2x what a 1WW would have.

This is a little to general. The 1WW can afford cheaper techs, and better mining. If it is a PP or IT, we are talking 8k pretty quick. A JOAT can hit 6K. With the right mine settings, you don't run out of metal on your HW, and can send a contiuous stream of warships at your neighbors. QS's, on the other hand, still depend on getting planets and therefore have to have a reasonable hab. That costs some RP. That means that you have cut corners somewhere, and it is usually on mine eff and tech.

Quote:

On MM. I've managed to turn 15 worlds into a 2 hours of MM per turn, but that was w/ SD and I was holding off a whole team with about 10x my resources over a theater of about 800ly for 50 years.

If they had 10x your resources, and you held them off for 50 years, then you are either the best SD player on the planet, or they sucked...

Quote:

Keep in mind that when I face 16 planets on average, I tend to look at that as more like 32-64 for myself, no matter the opposition.

So, you assume that you will own 1/4+ of the map from the get go. I like that attitude. Please play in this game. I want to see that first hand. I normally don't get that cocky till turn 35.

-Matt

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This is fine that you guys have so many opinions on race designs with respect to universes, but this is not the proper thread to engage in such a discussion. Read the 'STICKY Notice for posters' post in this forum regarding the rules for posting in the new games threads. Perhaps start a new thread in the Academy forum relating to such matters?
Keep it simple.

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Heh Turbit, whats wrong with it? I think its fine pregame gorilla diplo there.

If matt can harrass gakl to join then it splits that other half of the gang away from his shoulders. The more noise gakl makes the more unsureness who to fear. Also theres Kang, so it will be quite fun game.

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brian12110 wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 18:26

Hello everyone, The game is now full. Actually 15 players, but its time to get started. I sent an email (on bcc per request) to all the players. If you think you sent me a request to be in the game and did not get the email, please let me know by 6pm EST Tuesday 8/24.

Damn. Game looks like it's getting thrown up a lot earlier than I expected. Doesn't look like I'll make it in the game as I've not sent in a race. I never send in a race till I know the exact number of players in the game...

I can't start before Sept. 7th or 8th in any case since I'm going on vacation for most of the week before the 7th.

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[Updated on: Mon, 30 August 2004 07:56] by Moderator

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mlaub wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 08:28

As I said, maybe in a team game. Frank E and I once wiped 4 other teams in a Medium, and he was playing an AR. Team games help eliminate most of the issues of a AR, even if your partner starts across the map. I'm sure your teammate gave you tech, on a pre-arranged schedule.

Actually, as the AR I was supplying most of the starting tech. I grabbed 3 big worlds early, had a huge tech lead by 20. Just around that time, I made a massive tactical blunder, and lost a world that was effectively a 2nd HW 150ly away. Set me back about 10 years in the loss of that one world. My tech lead was tremendous, so I was just barely able to keep throwing up just enough mine fields and picking off enough ships to keep my worlds alive after waves and waves of assaults from multiple directions. Eventually others became involved in other wars and I struck out against a dual IT team next to me. While I continued to see harassment from a WM on my other side (hunter).

Actually, the tech trade was mostly, me trying to get my ally up to speed early (HP design--1/2500 TT CA)

mlaub wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 08:28

Usually that takes 40+ years. Your chances of surviving fall way off if you start losing colonies before that happens.

Actually, I find the ARs work best with an offensive strategy. If only you can get by the early mineral crunch without catastrophic losses.

mlaub wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 08:28

Quote: Keep in mind that when I face 16 planets on average, I tend to look at that as more like 32-64 for myself, no matter the opposition. So, you assume that you will own 1/4+ of the map from the get go. I like that attitude. Please play in this game. I want to see that first hand. I normally don't get that cocky till turn 35.

Well...that's just because there have been very few games in recent years where I haven't managed to get at least twice my fair allotment of planets.

The one w/ the SD was a particularly spectacular failure.

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brian12110 wrote on Mon, 23 August 2004 21:26

Hello everyone, The game is now full. Actually 15 players, but its time to get started. I sent an email (on bcc per request) to all the players. If you think you sent me a request to be in the game and did not get the email, please let me know by 6pm EST Tuesday 8/24.

Sob, I guess it's to late for me then? I'm almost eliminated in my other game and am looking for another..

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Quote:

Sob, I guess it's to late for me then? I'm almost eliminated in my other game and am looking for another..

Give it a shot anyway. The worst that can happen is that the host will advise that you're too late.
AFAIK, not all races have been submitted by the players that are in yet and remember that some of those players saying they would join might be drop outs before it gets started.

Another thing; assuming that you're the type of player that only enters one game at a time, keep in mind at the start the new game will require very little thinking. By the time you get busy in "Back to basics" your other game should be well and truly over.

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Ok, I'm giving it a shot. Mailing him the race-file now..

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Looks like he already saved a spot for me.

time for me to take a look at the game specifications and grab a race out of my hat.

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