Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI
 Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 03 August 2004 04:12  |
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Overcloaking FYI
I was certain I had posted this information previously and thought I had put it in the SS Forum -
but, it's not there. So, in the interests of putting this somewhere easy to find I'm putting the info
here.
Overcloakers
As most players know, overcloakers require mass as well as cloaks. I am listing here maximum overcloakers
for the Galleon and Nubian hull for both SS and non-SS races including their total cloak units. I don't
need response posts about the 2 scanners - do what you want with your designs - these are simply the
maximum overcloaker designs possible.
Maximum Galleon Overcloaker
Non-SS, IS, SD SS IS SD
709,800 cloak units 2,997,000 cloak units 785,120 cloak units 874,720 cloak Units
Trans Galaxtic Drive x 4 Trans Galactic Drive x 4 Trans Galaxtic Drive x 4 Trans Galaxtic Drive x 4
OR Interspace 10 x 4 OR Interspace 10 x 4 OR Interspace 10 x 4 OR Interspace 10 x 4
4 x Tritanium Armor 4 x Tritanium Armor 4 x Tritanium Armor 4 x Tritanium Armor
10 x Super Stealth Cloak 10 x Ultra Stealth Cloak 8 x Super Stealth Cloak 8 x Super Stealth Cloak
2 x Eagle Eye Scanner 2 x Robber Baron Scanner 2 x Eagle Eye Scanner 2 x Eagle Eye Scanner
2 x Speed Trap 20 2 x Speed Trap 50
Maximum Nubian Overcloaker
Non-SS, IS, SD SS IS SD
3,345,720 cloak units 13,381,200 cloak units 5,113,080 cloak units 6,927,480 cloak units
Trans Galaxtic Drive x 3 Trans Galactic Drive x 3 Trans Galaxtic Drive x 3 Trans Galactic Drive x 3
OR Interspace 10 x 3 OR Interspace 10 x 3 OR Interspace 10 x 3 OR Interspace 10 x 3
15 x Tritanium Armor 15 x Tritanium Armor 18 x Speed Trap 20 18 x Speed Trap 50
21 x Super Stealth Cloak 21 x Ultra Stealth Cloak 18 x Super Stealth Cloak 18 x Super Stealth Cloak
To find out how cloaked your fleets will be, add up all the cloak units of all the cloaks in the fleet
and divide by the mass of the fleet. You need to end up with 750-800 cloak units per kt for 90% cloaking.
A note for those HE players since the Metamorph is better than the galleon for an overcloaker.
Maximum Metamorph Overcloaker
854,000 cloak units
Trans Galaxtic Drive x 3
OR Interspace 10 x 3
7 x Tritanium Armor
10 x Super Stealth Cloak
And, last, but not least, The WM Dreadnaught overcloaker
3,773,000 cloak units
Trans Galaxtic Drive x 5
OR Interspace 10 x 5
16 x Tritanium Armor
10 x Super Stealth Cloak
38 x Missiles (your choice) 
{updated to add IS & SD maximum designs}
[Updated on: Tue, 21 November 2006 21:14]
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 03 August 2004 04:19  |
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Another interesting overcloaker can be produced by the WarMonger... utilizing the Dreadnought, with 10 possible electrical slots, and 16 armour slots; you can make an effective overcloaker.
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 03 August 2004 06:04 |
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Without doubt, there are many possible designs for overcloakers. I simply wished to list the designs that provide the absolute maximum cloaking points per hull. Working backwards from this would be my recommendation for modifying designs to use other components.
Granted, on a nubian hull, an IS race can get even higher cloaking by using speed trap mines in place of tritanium - they have more mass.
So, for you IS players and SD players, the overcloaker post has been modified to include maximum overcloaker designs for those PRT's.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 03 August 2004 10:18 |
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yep - sorry but it is a typo - Will fix it ASAP - thanks for noticing
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Tue, 03 August 2004 10:20]
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 10 August 2004 05:26 |
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The problem here is that 'gatable' and 'overcloaker' doesn't work well for anyone other than an IT. Since one of the main build necessities for an overcloaker is mass, they are ungateable for maximum cloaking value. However, in the interests of throwing out a design, I'd go with a galleon using fuel mizer engines, a penn scanner, 10 Super stealths, 2 neutronium and 2 organic armors. That makes a ship that weighs 303kt - just gateable through a 300/500 gate. The ship provides 424,200 cloak units - a little over half of a maximum galleon overcloaker. You'll need to build twice as many of them.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 10 August 2004 12:47 |
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| Quote: |
Anyone have a good idea what the best gateable OC is?
How badly do they fare for cost effectiveness?
...another chart of various races would be good
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What is gatable? 300kt no damage. 450 kt less damage. 900 kt can be livable loses if not jumping all over the place. (But sometimes jumping all over can be very useful for screwing up enemy who can't follow as easy) Right now working with assumption of around 300kt.
imo it depends what you need the ship for to rate it's cost effectiveness. Smaller ships are easier on the fuel supply as well as gatable and sometimes a scanner/sniper/minesweeper only needs a 300kt overcloaker for its type of work.
Hard to give costs as miniturization plays a big part. For effectiveness, if your ships weighs half as much as a normal overcloaker then you may be losing 40% efficiency but gaining something else such as more minefield/missile resistance from shields, fuel supply.
First, start with HE as most experience there... have used 3 designs successfully:
{
Metamorph full of 35% cloaks, around 175kt mass, 96% cloaking, can build early and gate through 150/600 gates... 35% cloakers are comparitively cheap
Metamorph 12 x 55% cloaks, 4 x minelayers, best shield, around 300kt mass, 98% cloaking, stealth sneak into conflict area minelayer
Metamorph with 10-12 55% cloaks, few torps or missiles, few shields, around 300kt mass... missile sniper that can be combined with minesweeper destroyers as a sniper
}
Mega-poly shell (MT toy)... can make big difference on galleons, battleships and dreadnaughts and durable metamorphs if available.
Galleon 89% cloaking with 35% cloaks, 97% with 55% cloaks. Shields and armour and perhaps scanner to get 300 kt.
why 89% even mentioned? Earlier on tech tree for some. 35% cloakers are comparitively cheap. Sometimes all you need is limited cloak to hide from penn scans when gating in. Enemy having limited scanners and/or you only needing to work from 60ly-160 ly distance from his nearest warships (with 160ly may be heading towards him). Also dual use as hard to take out transport.
Battleship/dreadnaught... way less cost effective compared to super heavy versions. But better battle speed, fuel range.
Dreadnaught with 10 slots can work like galleon and be a nasty sniper or beamer defender of a missile sniper as well. 97% cloak max, likely some beam weapons and shields, usually over 300kt but still very gatable.
Battleship with 93% overcloaking may still be useful for some roles such as penn scan fooler, as it can provide a fairly nasty beamer suprise in a barely over 300kt package.
Nubians...
24 x 35% cloaks yields 98% cloaking. Lots of ways to get weight up to 300kt. Each cloak may only cost 1 germ, 1 iron and 1 resource in the end. 55% cloaks may cost 33%+ more per effective power depending on how you count.
Looking at how cheap a 35% cloak x 24 nub is while you still get the same armour and fuel... you may not be paying so much a premium for gatable depending on what you want to use overcloaker for.
With overcloaking, extra cloakers to go beyond 98% means more overcloaking of ships while alternative of shields are useful to reduce sniping hazards.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 August 2004 12:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Tue, 10 August 2004 20:41 |
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| Quote: |
Exactly. Actually 1400 kt is about as far you can go if we talk of overgating with 300/500. Lose some 25-30% per gating + get almost full damage.
Losses are very "liveable" if we consider cost efficiency. Usual, 1200 kT nub overcloaker is about 3 times more bang for the buck than 300 kT nub overcloaker. Efficent, if you plan to gate less than 4 times with them. I for example next to never gate with my overcloakers. Also the damage ... who cares? Fully damaged overcloaker overcloaks as good.
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If one looks at costs of 35% cloaks compared to 55% cloaks on nubians, plus factors of fuel supply, armour (helps against sniping, minefields, etc) we may not be talking 3 more times bang for buck.
Tactics like amount of gating is partially decided by the ships you have to work with. For example my last two games I have taken advantage of my opponents reluctance to keep gating cruisers through 100/250 gates in the early going (I tend be more dual use destroyers and minesweepers and skirmishers).
When talking overcloakers, it can be useful to be gating overcloaked fleets every turn when they are in defensive posture to keep opponent really guessing as to what you have and where. Sometimes hard for opponent to get close penn scans or orbital checkers at all locations of interest.
As well as part of a suprise sniping team against minelayers/transports, etc. sometimes 1200 kt is vast wasted overkill.
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Thu, 12 August 2004 01:19 |
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36 slots in a nub, only need 3 armour at most to get 300+kt leaving 33 for other stuff like cloaks. 24 cloakers reaches 98%, room for extra 9.
To quote myself from previous post:
| Quote: |
With overcloaking, extra cloakers to go beyond 98% means more overcloaking of ships while alternative of shields are useful to reduce sniping hazards.
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Question of what you want to accomplish. For example one guy might want a suprise minelayer that can double as an overcloaker in a pinch... 30x35% cloaks, 6 x minelayers
Not every job needs 98%, hiding from long range penn scans and hiding movements in less hostile territory can often get by with less.
zoid liked the fanciest toys while I like cheapo toys that I can mass produce in bulk and don't mind losing some. Just as kotk doesn't mind some losses from overgating, I don't mind some losses from not as great of cloaking.
In my current Trans game, my best early snipers were obsolete destroyers I was trying to get rid of... there is a strength to having stuff so cheap you don't mind really risky plays.
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Thu, 12 August 2004 04:23 |
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 iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Quote: |
Question of what you want to accomplish.
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Sorry multis, but IMO you're missing the point. It is not cloaker, it is overcloaker. With that word everybody means a ship that gives the most cloaking units possible. Not minelayers with cloaking, not other fancy design, but ship that cloaks other ships the best way possible. Period.
With the Nubian it is possible to design an overcloaker with some other abilities, but those abilities go on account of overcloaking efficience. And most of the time I'm not satisfied with a ship that can perform more tasks, but excels in neither, because they fall to easily to opponent's specialized designs.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Thu, 12 August 2004 09:22 |
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| Quote: |
Sorry multis, but IMO you're missing the point. It is not cloaker, it is overcloaker. With that word everybody means a ship that gives the most cloaking units possible.
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imo abillity to mislead penn scans by some overcloaking, abillity to overcloak destroyer minesweepers and cheap scanner ships to 98% and abillity in pinch to hide bigger gate building suprise fleet for a few turns is also OVERCLOAKING. (And being able to then spread out into 50 different fleets laying mines to protect gate while cloaked 98% is nice).
The thread started asking about designs for GATABLE overcloakers. Fill a ship full of 55% cloaks and have weight of 300kt and you end up with lots of germ used and a package too expensive to risk.
I try to stretch the battlefield all over the map and the abillity to continue to hop to different locations every single turn when on own gates can be very useful.
The suprise minelayer is one of the most useful applications of cloakers imo. And it don't take much to overcloak destroyer minesweepers, cheap cloaker detecting scanners, etc.
...
Ok, I am not SD. It is a medium sized universe. The battlefield covers over 500 ly, over 10 different major conflict points (with 10+ gates on each side on warfront). The enemy likes having big fleets that cross the void of devistation.
I want to suprise minefield trap his forces, suprise sweep and minefield for my own, etc. I want to quickly gate to any of the 10 points of conflict and may switch every turn which one. I also want to be able to detect his cloakers including snipers with a spread out scanning force. I already have cheapo scanners, I want to cloak a few of them so he can't evade as easily.
What design is best?
The most 'efficient' may be to fill a nub with 36 minelayers and another nub as super overcloaker weighing 1200 kt.
The most expensive warships with best firepower on paper of few centuries past was Spanish Galleon yet bunch of tiny British warships won the war. Few powerful fleets are not always best.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 August 2004 09:34] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Thu, 12 August 2004 13:26 |
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Mazda, here is the part of the thread I was responding to. Others were saying gatable not cost effective and I disagree, sometimes are (depending on situation and your style of play).
| Quote: |
Anyone have a good idea what the best gateable OC is?
How badly do they fare for cost effectiveness?
...another chart of various races would be good
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I was giving examples of 300 kt ships that are both overcloakers and potentially useful for other things. Similar to how one puts a colony pod on a large freighter that normally doesn't colonise. My style is cheapo.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 August 2004 13:29] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Overcloaking (Overcloaker) FYI |
Thu, 12 August 2004 16:11 |
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Before nubians there is no such thing as an effective overcloaker using simple stealth cloaks. A nubian overcloaker using simple stealth cloaks requires 24 of them to achieve 98 % cloaking for the ship and can only provide about half the potential cloaking of a ship with super stealth cloaks. (1 million 626 thousand and some odd cloak units).
Before nubians no ship can provide any useful degree of overcloaking with simple stealth cloaks.
One has to realize that against an enemy with NAS, attacking fleets MUST be within 90 light years to be able to hit a target at warp 9 in a one year jump. In order to be invisible at 89.6 light years a fleet must be 84% cloaked - that means the bombers, battleships, cruisers and chaff.
A galleon with stealth cloaks only achieves 89% base cloaking with all potential slots filled with stealth cloaks. A metamorph can only achieve 96% with all slots filled - that makes a poor overcloaker since the weight is too low.
As far as I can see mathmatically, using overcloakers to cloak ships to 50% is quite a waste of effort. Additionally, there isn't much point trying to cloak starbases - anybody with any curiosity will 'ping' their target.
Ptolemy
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| Re: Rogue overcloakers |
Fri, 01 July 2005 10:22 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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I have a spreadsheet just for comparing overcloaking.
At all tech 26:
A rogue with 2 p16 scoops, 5 tritanium armor, and 8 ultra cloaks costs 65 iron, 3 bora, 49 germ, and 139 resources, has a mass of 437. It can cloak 1002kT of uncloaked (SS) ships to 98%, that's 15.41kT cloaked per kT of iron.
A galleon with 4 p16 scoops, 4 tritanium armor, and 10 ultra cloaks costs 84 iron, 6 bora, 74 germ, and 208 resources, has a mass of 459. It can cloak 1430kT of uncloaked (SS) ships to 98%, that's 17.03kT cloaked per kT of iron.
Just for comparison, a nubian with 6 stacks ultras and 6 stacks tritanium gets 47.99kT per kT of iron. A non-SS nubian with 8 stacks super cloaks and 4 tritanium gets 5.97kT per kT of iron. IS and SD can do better with speed traps for weight instead of tritanium.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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If i remember correctly it is almost like IS overcloaker nub with full speed traps ... about 5,000,000 cloak units. 
I have no design slots for them. Even with SS i often end up with only 3-4 designs that actually use cloaks. With rest of the PRT-s i have usually only 2. 
