Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games
| Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Fri, 20 December 2002 15:47  |
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 Steve |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 217
Registered: November 2002
Location: 40 deg N, 90 deg W | |
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With chaff in the game, the beamers will win every time. The missile and torpedo ships will only shoot at the chaff and will never even target a beamer.
The beamers will probably win anyway due to the cost of missile and torpedo ships.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Fri, 20 December 2002 16:51  |
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Beamers cost a lot too.... just boranium instead... and guess how weak smart bombs are? any-body with a good amount of defenses will ne, it takes a huge boost in resources to bomb his planet with smart bombs, and then invade while all remaining colonists can man defense outposts.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Sat, 21 December 2002 02:16 |
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The only real downside I can see is how the hell torpedo and cap missile races can handle minefields.
An SD race will have a MASSIVE advantage.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Sun, 22 December 2002 17:30 |
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| zoid |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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| Steve wrote on Sat, 21 December 2002 06:52 |
IS doesn't need smart bombs. IS doesn't need any bombs, just drop enough population to overwhelm the defenses.
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That sounds like a perfectly horrid option. High defenses at a well developed planet are going to decimate the attacking troops as they land, there is going to be nothing left to kill populace. How many troops are you thinking it would take?
I seem to be the only one in this forum who isn't some kind of rocket scientist mathematician and doesn't know how all the game mechanic formulas work, so I'll HUMBLY speculate about 20,000,000 in a single drop to take over a planet with 100% defenses. And all of you mathematicians go ahead and correct me ("No no, it won't take 20,000,000 troops, by my calculations it should only take 6,453,221 troops, give or take 3 or 4 due to some wierd variable in the formula." Thank you Spock.  ) but I'm confident that in the end you're going to agree that not even an IS race can throw population away at the rate necessary to take well defended planets with only troops. They need SOME kind of bombs.
| jeffimix wrote on Fri, 20 December 2002 13:51 |
Beamers cost a lot too.... just boranium instead...
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I find my beamers tend to be pretty balanced in mineral costs, unlike missile boats that require huge amounts of ironium. I'm inclined to agree with Steve that the beamers are going to win without much contest. Given a choice of weapon types in this scenario, I doubt anyone would choose missiles or torps, and that should serve as a clear indication of the inbalance.
[Updated on: Sun, 22 December 2002 17:34]
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
Math?  Ummm, sure!  I do FREESTYLE math.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Sun, 22 December 2002 18:09 |
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Ok here goes....
Max number of invasion troops killed by defenses = 75%
Defensive value for all population (excluding IS) = 1
Attacking value for all population (excluding WM) = 1.1
To make this easier...
Target planet had max defenses and population of 1 million. Goal of the invasion is to kill all the population and replace it with a population of 1 million.
So you need 910,000 troops to kill all the inhabitants + 1 million people to control the planet, so lets make it easier and say you need 2 million troops to LAND.
Since this 2 million is just 25% of the original force dropped you need a total of 8 million troops.
A super frieghter holds 300,000 troops. So you'll need 27 super frieghters and have 1000kt of space left in the ships.
Which all in all sounds like a large number, but it isn't. Firstly IS breed into ships regardless of capacity - i.e. the breeding rate never slows down. So by these means if you had a fleet of say 300 super freighters full to the brim (not a hard task if you start early and have 18%+ growth rate) and a growth rate of 18% you now have a fleet that can invade ANY planet and not only win guaranteed but they will also destroy no mines, no factories (do defenses still stay?) and replace the entire population - in other words the planet becomes instantly usable. Not only can you do this once, but you can do it once a turn, every turn until someone destroys those freighters (and by god will they try). Now remember all of this so far assumes worst case scenario - not every planet you meet will have 100 defenses and a population of 1,000,000 - more often they will have less.
The ONLY race that can stand up to such an onslaught (excluding AR) is another IS race - I'm not sure who wins if you drop 8 million but my best guess is that the invader will, but not by much and the left over population will be more in the region of 200,000 than 1,000,000.
Now take a B-52 bomber. Add a decent engine and 8 annihilator bombs, 4 LBU-74's and 4 cherry bombs. These cost 464 resources and cost 508kt of minerals. They also require bloody high tech.
Now take a super freighter and stick on the same engine (galaxy scoop for these examples). it costs 87 resources and 68kt of minerals and loads less tech. So thats 16 super freighters to every 3 of those B-52's. So those 300 super freighters you need cost less than 57 b-52's resource wise and less than 41 of the b-52's mineral wise (total).
So not only do you have a quicker and more efficient way to take a planet - but a cheaper one too.
Downside - time. A breeder fleet of that size takes time, something that is rarely found in abundance in a game.
With an intial investment of 1 million people it will take 53 years to grow the fleet to a large enough size and at the highest point of growth you will need to add 24 super freighters to the fleet at once. Now account into that the time it takes to research the tech needed for those b-52's and you'll see the super freighters aren't that far behind. Especially when you consider that when one of these fleets aren't in use they can double (i.e. create another fleet like it) in 10 years - but this assumes your IS race breeds at 18%... which it does right?
With a growth rate of 20% the time it takes to breed the fleet is cut down to 49 years. A growth rate of 19% would take 50 years.
So all in all if you start at 2450 with this fleet idea, by 2500 you have a planet killer, if you dont use it for ten years you have 2 planet killers. Should you have the opportunity you could even split the fleet into 10 fleets and take out 10 worlds in one go (but you can't carry on after this point).
IS are the single best race at taking planets. No doubt about it.
I mean in all seriousness you don't need a fleet this big. One 2/3 of the size will get the job done as well, it just wont be able to leave as large a population behind.
Hope you found this helpful and enlightening.
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[Updated on: Mon, 13 January 2003 21:16] by Moderator
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Fri, 03 January 2003 13:05 |
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| Mangar |
 | Crewman 1st Class |
Messages: 32
Registered: December 2002
Location: Earth - Europe - Germany ... | |
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| freakyboy wrote on Sun, 22 December 2002 18:09 |
here goes....
Max number of invasion troops killed by defenses = 75%
Defensive value for all population (excluding IS) = 1
Attacking value for all population (excluding WM) = 1.1
To make this easier...
Target planet had max defenses and population of 1 million. Goal of the invasion is to kill all the population and replace it with a population of 1 million.
So you need 910,000 troops to kill all the inhabitants + 1 million people to control the planet, so lets make it easier and say you need 2 million troops to LAND.
Since this 2 million is just 25% of the original force dropped you need a total of 8 million troops.
A super frieghter holds 300,000 troops. So you'll need 27 super frieghters and have 1000kt of space left in the ships.
Which all in all sounds like a large number, but it isn't. Firstly IS breed into ships regardless of capacity - i.e. the breeding rate never slows down. So by these means if you had a fleet of say 300 super freighters full to the brim (not a hard task if you start early and have 18%+ growth rate) and a growth rate of 18% you now have a fleet that can invade ANY planet and not only win guaranteed but they will also destroy no mines, no factories (do defenses still stay?) and replace the entire population - in other words the planet becomes instantly usable. Not only can you do this once, but you can do it once a turn, every turn until someone destroys those freighters (and by god will they try). Now remember all of this so far assumes worst case scenario - not every planet you meet will have 100 defenses and a population of 1,000,000 - more often they will have less.
The ONLY race that can stand up to such an onslaught (excluding AR) is another IS race - I'm not sure who wins if you drop 8 million but my best guess is that the invader will, but not by much and the left over population will be more in the region of 200,000 than 1,000,000.
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8.000.000 dropped
6.000.000 killed by defense
2.000.000 left * 1.1 (attack value) = 2.200.000
1.000.000 defender * 2 (is-def value) = 2.000.000
left are 200.000 points / 1.1 = 181.818 attacker are now inhabiting the world
| Quote: |
Now take a B-52 bomber. Add a decent engine and 8 annihilator bombs, 4 LBU-74's and 4 cherry bombs. These cost 464 resources and cost 508kt of minerals. They also require bloody high tech.
Now take a super freighter and stick on the same engine (galaxy scoop for these examples). it costs 87 resources and 68kt of minerals and loads less tech. So thats 16 super freighters to every 3 of those B-52's. So those 300 super freighters you need cost less than 57 b-52's resource wise and less than 41 of the b-52's mineral wise (total).
So not only do you have a quicker and more efficient way to take a planet - but a cheaper one too.
Downside - time. A breeder fleet of that size takes time, something that is rarely found in abundance in a game.
With an intial investment of 1 million people it will take 53 years to grow the fleet to a large enough size and at the highest point of growth you will need to add 24 super freighters to the fleet at once. Now account into that the time it takes to research the tech needed for those b-52's and you'll see the super freighters aren't that far behind. Especially when you consider that when one of these fleets aren't in use they can double (i.e. create another fleet like it) in 10 years - but this assumes your IS race breeds at 18%... which it does right?
With a growth rate of 20% the time it takes to breed the fleet is cut down to 49 years. A growth rate of 19% would take 50 years.
So all in all if you start at 2450 with this fleet idea, by 2500 you have a planet killer, if you dont use it for ten years you have 2 planet killers. Should you have the opportunity you could even split the fleet into 10 fleets and take out 10 worlds in one go (but you can't carry on after this point).
IS are the single best race at taking planets. No doubt about it.
I mean in all seriousness you don't need a fleet thi |
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[Updated on: Mon, 13 January 2003 21:17] by Moderator
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Fri, 03 January 2003 13:42 |
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Well those 150 ships told to target my freighters are no different to my 150 ships told to target your bombers.
As such no advantage/disadvantage is created.
As for attacking an IS - just double the ships/colonist required to achieve the same results.
And since my freighters are cheaper than your bombers (as pointed out) I think I have the advantage?
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Fri, 03 January 2003 16:16 |
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1. freighters are cheaper.
2. regrowing the colonists can be done constantly. the time your bombers spend travelling between point A and point B is spent doing nothing. The freighters can breed.
3. the freighters can have jammer 50's and some sheilds slapped on them - this would increase survivability and coupled with a high battle speed this will give your freighters a better chance than those super heavy bombers.
4. You don't NEED 300 super freighters to do this, 300 is just the maximum required. Not all that many planets have 100% capacity and 100% value, and more importantly if you don't have to invade EVERY single turn then you can use 1/2 the number of ships.
All in all I figure the freighters are the better option.
Cheaper, quicker, better planet recovery, increased survivability.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Mon, 13 January 2003 14:08 |
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I mentioned in my post which (for the time being) appears to have disappeared under a replica of Mangers post...
that 8million is needed to take a planet every single time. Since u need to follow this formula to take any planet guaranteed...
population of enemy planet (multiply by 2 if defender is IS) divided by 1.1 this is the defensive value
Population you want to hold the planet after (i.e. look at the habitability % and see max pop the planet will support). this is the attacking value.
Defensive value + attacking value * 4 gives the required pop drop.
Realistically you'll rarely need to drop more than 3-4 million people, but for those well dug in central worlds 8 may be a more viable option.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Mon, 13 January 2003 19:41 |
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| zoid |
| Ensign |
Messages: 348
Registered: December 2002
Location: Murray, KY - USA | |
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| theBorg wrote on Mon, 13 January 2003 07:50 |
. . . you can always send some smart bombers. . .
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Well, we WERE talking about the IS race, so that isn't an option. In fact, that's what brought the whole thing up.
Summary: Someone mentioned the possibility of allowing each race only one weapon type, and furthermore, mating certain weapon types with certain bomb types. Freakyboy asked what happens if the IS race was given beam weapons, which were currently being mated with smart bombs. Someone else said "Bah, IS don't need any bombs anyway". Having never played IS, I protested that taking a well defended world that way would take a lot of populace and even the IS couldn't sustain a conquest that way without some kind of bombs(OK, I was wrong and showing my ignorance, but that's hardly uncommon for me  ). Freakyboy says it can be sustained with 8 million.
Now you're saying it would only take 4 million, but you're not talking about using that same populace to conquer one planet after another every turn. Are you?
I'M NOT AN EXPERT AND I'M OFTEN PROVEN WRONG. TAKE THAT INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN YOU READ MY POSTS.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Mon, 13 January 2003 21:19 |
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Yea, the original basis, since it was snipped  although still exists, was that beams, torps, and caps should be split between races. All weapons up to tech 11 would be allowed, however for each race(for chaff sweeping et c.). Then, since beams are (unlike yester-year) considered super powerful I said that perhaps beams should only be allowed smart bombs and so on. And then someone said: what if IS got screwed with beams? and so this discussion. Now then....
4 million people lets say for full planet hmm....
18% growth.... half on freighters...
44,444,446 people needed for 4 million a year, a little over what's easy to attain so I'd say that we can only expect IS to have it easy pop dropping, not to be able to avoid the horrid expense of bombs...
every two years and we onyl need 22,000,000 people though hmmm.
4 would be 11,000,000 people (now all of that is actually high since growth compounds a lot) but with 5.5 million people you could get a slow super killer going, and smaller bases would be easy, it's just not bombless.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Tue, 14 January 2003 03:34 |
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growth on freighters isn't compound. If your race grows at 18% then the people on your freighters will breed @ 9% regardless of freighter capacity.
They'll grow at 9% if there's only 100kt of people out of 100000kt and they'll always grow at 9% until the freighter runs out of room... and then they'll overflow onto friendly planets (not unfriendly unfortunately).
and the full calculation is the MAXIMUM to leave the optimum population to hold the planet, you may not want to do this every single turn. The less often you want to do this and the less controlling population you want to leave behind the less you need to drop. Figure out what you need and go for it.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Tue, 14 January 2003 06:54 |
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Yes, I was saying that one turn you get 9% for 100,000 people then you have 109,000 people the next turn so you get more people.... I think it could be much easier to build a freighter fleet like this that is only used every few years though, compared to one used every year.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Tue, 14 January 2003 14:00 |
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Well thats just it, due to the nature of such a fleet if you maintain it properly then it accelerates as long as you ensure it is never 100% full.
You start with a fleet that can invade every 4th turn, then every 3rd turn, every 2nd and then every turn.
But it doesn't have to stop there. You can use your now every turn fleet to produce more fleets and so on and so forth.
The real strength about this ability is that as long as you never let those freighters fill and you defend them well (jammer 50's are a good start) you can not only have 1 every turn fleet, but you can have many of them.
This leads to another IS only race - the OWW IS race that can colonise many planets.
IS is a race commonly overlooked ignoring the wonderous gadgets and abilities because of the increased weapon cost.
Just think... breeder fleets, jammer 50 nubs, speed trap mines.... never mind those early croby sharmour minigun ships.
and yeah... IS DO have the best skirmish frigates, beaten only by WM maybe.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Tue, 14 January 2003 15:48 |
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Yeah, the IS Croby Sharmor makes them very hard to beat, since missile weapons have to hurt so much armor. I've always wondered, should a normal horde ship use 1/2/3 shields?, I've come to believe one is about right if your opponent starts fielding missiles.
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Mon, 19 May 2008 23:29 |
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| knightpraetor |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 154
Registered: October 2006 | |
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Is it still worth building huge orgies to popdrop with even if you are -f?
also, i didn't understand why someone would field a bomber with both the best smart bomb, the best regular bomb, and the best LBU. Shouldn't you just use LBU and cherries and leave the smart bomb off)
[Updated on: Mon, 19 May 2008 23:47] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Rock, Paper, Scissors split from New Games |
Tue, 20 May 2008 02:44 |
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| knightpraetor wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 15:29 |
Is it still worth building huge orgies to popdrop with even if you are -f?
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Yes, tho generally a -f should have pretty much won already(if they're going to win) well before orgies become useful. Orgies can provide a means for IS to keep growing during times when expansion isn't an option as 9-10% growth is freighters can be a greater growth than keeping the pop on the planets, if planets are getting fuller.
| knightpraetor wrote on Tue, 20 May 2008 15:29 |
also, i didn't understand why someone would field a bomber with both the best smart bomb, the best regular bomb, and the best LBU. Shouldn't you just use LBU and cherries and leave the smart bomb off)
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Yes.
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| Re: Rock Paper Scissors... |
Thu, 22 May 2008 17:24 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| freakyboy wrote on Sun, 22 December 2002 18:09 |
So you need 910,000 troops to kill all the inhabitants + 1 million people to control the planet, so lets make it easier and say you need 2 million troops to LAND.
Since this 2 million is just 25% of the original force dropped you need a total of 8 million troops.
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Defenses only work till the attacker wins. In other words, you don't drop all the troops on the planet, you drop just enough to win, and the rest land without defenses or fighting.
So, you need to drop 4 million to take the world, and 1 million to occupy it, for a total of 5 million.
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