Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Best 2450 Resource Count
| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Thu, 30 April 2009 11:00   |
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 magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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I am stunned.
Wait... 15% real growth?!
HOLY SHIT.
*kowtow*
[Updated on: Thu, 30 April 2009 11:06] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Fri, 01 May 2009 04:24 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Madman wrote on Fri, 01 May 2009 16:32 |
| slimdrag00n wrote on Fri, 01 May 2009 18:09 |
those are really high numbers.. i dont think i could believe it until i actually see it with my own eyes.
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PM me an email address and I'll send you the turn files. The zipfile of the full history (if you want that) is 1.2 MB though.
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magic9mushroom@ gmail.com (remove space)
[Updated on: Fri, 01 May 2009 04:25] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Fri, 01 May 2009 08:02 |
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| Madman |
 | Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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OK, there's been a few requests for the files.
I'm happy to send them to whoever wants them, and feel free to pass them on to anyone interested. Please specify whether you want:
* Just the last turn
* Every 5th turn (277k)
* Every turn (1.2M)
[Update] I'll send the full one by default - it looks like I was out of date with what people's mailboxes can handle!
Of course, it would be more efficient if I could put the full thing on a website somewhere - any offers?
[Updated on: Fri, 01 May 2009 09:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Fri, 01 May 2009 14:29 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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I doubt it is possible to do much better than Madman did, even in a larger universe. After all, it is impossible to get more than 16% growth from a breeder that's exporting pop, unless you're HE, and HE isn't CA, and hence has a terraforming problem (unless tri-immune, but then you can't get over 16% growth anyway). Also a severe capacity problem.
Madman actually I believe got something like 90% achieved hab.
[Updated on: Fri, 01 May 2009 14:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Fri, 01 May 2009 18:35 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 06:29 |
I doubt it is possible to do much better than Madman did, even in a larger universe. After all, it is impossible to get more than 16% growth from a breeder that's exporting pop, unless you're HE, and HE isn't CA, and hence has a terraforming problem (unless tri-immune, but then you can't get over 16% growth anyway). Also a severe capacity problem.
Madman actually I believe got something like 90% achieved hab.
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Actually, it would be quite possible to do better in several ways that I can think of:
(1) 10 factories/10 pop was too low. I was working on the mistaken assumption that after all the bio research I would not be able to fill out all the factories, so a low number was OK. In the end I only had a few more factories than colonists, but that was because I realized there was going to be a surplus, so didn't build them as hard as I could. There's another 5-10% there (depending on where the points are taken from for increased factories).
(2) I ran out of planets (look at the growth over the last 10 years). Go to turn 48 (49 was the great factory shift, so ignore that one) and look at my pop on freighters with all planets held to 40%. In a bigger universe, that would all have been breeding, and some of those poor hab planets would have been replaced by better ones. Maintaining the earlier growth rate would have resulted in 35% more pop at the end.
(3) More micromanagement. OK, gains here probably start to get marginal, but the difference between say 1.149 and 1.15 average growth over 50 years is over 4%.
(4) Random events. Turning random events on and getting a lucky mystery trader (getting to a bio breakpoint early, or the alien miner near the start), wormhole (unlikely with only the homeworld having a scanner), or just getting the right techs from early colonies. I don't like this as it makes the result un-reproducible.
I'd guess it would be possible to achieve 350K in the universe setup I used, 400K (or maybe even as high as 450K), in a larger universe.
[Updated on: Fri, 01 May 2009 18:46] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Fri, 01 May 2009 22:49 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| Madman wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 00:02 |
OK, there's been a few requests for the files.
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Files now at: http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Testbed
Contact me if you have any problems using them.
(edit by Ron, fixed URL)
[Updated on: Tue, 25 January 2011 21:10] by Moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sat, 02 May 2009 04:54 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Madman wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 08:35 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 06:29 |
I doubt it is possible to do much better than Madman did, even in a larger universe. After all, it is impossible to get more than 16% growth from a breeder that's exporting pop, unless you're HE, and HE isn't CA, and hence has a terraforming problem (unless tri-immune, but then you can't get over 16% growth anyway). Also a severe capacity problem.
Madman actually I believe got something like 90% achieved hab.
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Actually, it would be quite possible to do better in several ways that I can think of:
(1) 10 factories/10 pop was too low. I was working on the mistaken assumption that after all the bio research I would not be able to fill out all the factories, so a low number was OK. In the end I only had a few more factories than colonists, but that was because I realized there was going to be a surplus, so didn't build them as hard as I could. There's another 5-10% there (depending on where the points are taken from for increased factories).
(2) I ran out of planets (look at the growth over the last 10 years). Go to turn 48 (49 was the great factory shift, so ignore that one) and look at my pop on freighters with all planets held to 40%. In a bigger universe, that would all have been breeding, and some of those poor hab planets would have been replaced by better ones. Maintaining the earlier growth rate would have resulted in 35% more pop at the end.
(3) More micromanagement. OK, gains here probably start to get marginal, but the difference between say 1.149 and 1.15 average growth over 50 years is over 4%.
(4) Random events. Turning random events on and getting a lucky mystery trader (getting to a bio breakpoint early, or the alien miner near the start), wormhole (unlikely with only the homeworld having a scanner), or just getting the right techs from early colonies. I don't like this as it makes the result un-reproducible.
I'd guess it would be possible to achieve 350K in the universe setup I used, 400K (or maybe even as high as 450K), in a larger universe.
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I was talking GR-wise, not resource-wise. What I was saying was that your achieved growth rate was very close to optimum (which is slightly more than 16%). The thing is, a tiny difference in GR translates to a huge difference in resources at those levels. So does an increase in economic settings, provided it doesn't affect GR.
Besides, no matter how big the universe, your core will be getting crowded by the end.
My calculations say that over 470k shouldn't be possible, and over 380k is extremely difficult.
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sat, 02 May 2009 08:35 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 20:54 |
I was talking GR-wise, not resource-wise. What I was saying was that your achieved growth rate was very close to optimum (which is slightly more than 16%). The thing is, a tiny difference in GR translates to a huge difference in resources at those levels. So does an increase in economic settings, provided it doesn't affect GR.
Besides, no matter how big the universe, your core will be getting crowded by the end.
My calculations say that over 470k shouldn't be possible, and over 380k is extremely difficult.
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I'd be interested to see the calculation for optimum being slightly more than 16% - I guess it is based on 100% worlds with overpop having a one year travel time to the next world?
If you read what I wrote at http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/322,059_resources_by_Madm an, _Apr_2009 , part of the point is that I try not to have a core - the population gets spread as evenly as I can, so (assuming it's possible to spread into the larger space), it would be possible to not be so crowded by 2450. I'd be inclined to agree that 470K shouldn't be possible, but 400K should be (with a larger universe).
(edit by Ron, fixed URL)
[Updated on: Tue, 25 January 2011 21:11] by Moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sat, 02 May 2009 09:48 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| Madman wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 22:35 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 20:54 |
I was talking GR-wise, not resource-wise. What I was saying was that your achieved growth rate was very close to optimum (which is slightly more than 16%). The thing is, a tiny difference in GR translates to a huge difference in resources at those levels. So does an increase in economic settings, provided it doesn't affect GR.
Besides, no matter how big the universe, your core will be getting crowded by the end.
My calculations say that over 470k shouldn't be possible, and over 380k is extremely difficult.
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I'd be interested to see the calculation for optimum being slightly more than 16% - I guess it is based on 100% worlds with overpop having a one year travel time to the next world?
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Simple. A breeder exporting pop has a corresponding 1/5 of the pop (20%) in the air at all times for 1 year travel time, or 2/5 for two-year (which at some point you will have to do). Hence you lose 1/6 to 2/7 of your pop growth right from the getgo. The only way around this is to use a hibernation pop strategy, which I'm not sure is even possible to make work.
| Quote: |
If you read what I wrote at http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/322,059_resources_by_Madm an, _Apr_2009 , part of the point is that I try not to have a core - the population gets spread as evenly as I can, so (assuming it's possible to spread into the larger space), it would be possible to not be so crowded by 2450. I'd be inclined to agree that 470K shouldn't be possible, but 400K should be (with a larger universe).
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Yeah, but you'll still run out of greens within 1 year of HW.
(edit by Ron, fixed URL)
[Updated on: Tue, 25 January 2011 21:12] by Moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sat, 02 May 2009 18:41 |
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| iztok wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 06:40 |
Hi!
| Madman wrote on Sat, 02 May 2009 14:35 |
part of the point is that I try not to have a core - the population gets spread as evenly as I can
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I'm affraid that only works for the IT. All other races simply MUST ferry pop through "normal" space, and that takes time - the bigger the uni, the longer it takes to move that pop to desired place. In the large or huge uni you could maintain growth only on the fringe of your expansion. The core would inavoidably crowd.
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His approach is sound, and given a large enough universe(medium probably) there would be an optimum "first breeder ring" distance for the given time frame(currently 2450) so that the whole area becomes full at the right time. Too far out and you delay the growth too much, too close in and you fill up the core too early.
Edit..Scary thought...next time someone offers a huge game where you absolutely have enough room to pull this off...
[Updated on: Sat, 02 May 2009 18:43] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sun, 03 May 2009 16:06 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| iztok wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 06:40 |
Running a game with Random events ON could help IMO. Having wormholes and MT's Jump Gates could speed-up pop spread immensely. But Jump Gates are very rare...
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It might help somewhat - although there are several problems with wormholes:
* I think wormholes don't tend to show up until a bit late to be much use in a 50 year test.
* Resources need to be expended on scanners (I think the best option would be RNA scanners on scouts or large freighters). You need them anyway in a real game, but it's overhead in a testbed.
* finding a wormhole means at least 3-4 turns before getting a colony on the other side of it (build scouts, send through wormhole, one year of scouting, colonize).
For the testbed I did I was trying to keep 'standard' conditions (hence things like the small universe size).
I'm still trying to work out whether galaxy clumping would e a help of a hinderence.
| gible wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 10:41 |
His approach is sound, and given a large enough universe(medium probably) there would be an optimum "first breeder ring" distance for the given time frame(currently 2450) so that the whole area becomes full at the right time. Too far out and you delay the growth too much, too close in and you fill up the core too early.
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It's not quite as organised as that - remember that pop doubles about every 5 years, so things change to fast to set up anything too complicated. What I do is have 'zones' that are each supported by a number of breeders, and as early as possible I try and reinforce underpopulated zones from overpopulated ones. Also the first few planets tend to be the nearer ones (reuse freighters when resources are tight), so the central zone is a larger one.
Also, as a CA, each level of TT brings a relatively evenly spread batch of shiny new greens.
I'm not sure how well this scales with larger universes - my guess is that the edges would never quite get properly populated.
| Quote: |
Edit..Scary thought...next time someone offers a huge game where you absolutely have enough room to pull this off...
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Except with this sort of micromanagement, you are always running as close as you can to the edge, so it might be a bit brittle for a real game. Also, you'd probably need to do something about those poor mine settings (like turning the G box off for 5 extra mines). Great if it works though!
[Updated on: Sun, 03 May 2009 17:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Sun, 03 May 2009 19:03 |
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| Madman |
| Officer Cadet 1st Year |
Messages: 228
Registered: November 2003
Location: New Zealand | |
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| LEit wrote on Mon, 04 May 2009 10:49 |
Wormholes show up at 2401, just you cannot normally see them.
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Interesting point there - I didn't know that (I never play races which have good starting scouting, so I've never seen an early wormhole).
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One way that the first huge resource total was generated was by pre scouting the galaxy, in the same fashion, you could check for wormholes, the scouting would have to be done with a hacked exe, but if you're pre scouting, why not cheat a bit more to get good scouting in 2400...
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Pre-scouting - no, I think it's 'cheating' (if you can say such a thing in a testbed). One of the challenges to this is working out how many scouts to build and how early to build them to get very fast expansion without hurting the ramp-up to much. I found about 15 is right for a small packed.
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Mon, 04 May 2009 08:48 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Madman wrote on Mon, 04 May 2009 13:11 |
It would be an interesting (but time consuming) exercise to see what could be done with each race in a similar universe.
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A playable 3-immune 6% PGR HE will reach 33k +/- 2k in ANY tiny packed uni.
My estimate for a testbed 3-immune 7% HE (all tech expensive, fac: 13/9/15/4, mines: 10/3/13) is 55k.
You can check google group RGCS for results of other PRTs. IIRC there are plenty of them.
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Mon, 04 May 2009 08:52] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Best 2450 Resource Count |
Wed, 20 May 2009 21:04 |
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Hi ,
I only say that it is usless to talk about Res. Benchmarks because it will not real help you in a game , you could do the work and MM if you want and have fun I have NP with this but it is mostly like desining a car what never drives.
I only want to tell that the ship Benchmark is a better way to check if a race will do well in a Human Player game.
And by the start of the Topic he wants also some tips for a "real " game and I would say that he should kick the Res. Benchmark in the trash and try a Ship Benchmark with his race
so he could see better if he could play the race in a Human game .
ccmaster
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I am interested to see what could be done with a non-ca in a tiny packed universe.
