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When to lay heavy mines? Thu, 13 May 2004 09:38 Go to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

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I've not yet played SD against humans, i intend to do so soon, but i've not yet figured out when and where to lay heavy mines.

The use of normal speed trap mines for SD are obvious, normal for detonating and speed for limiting enemy movement to w5(read calculation somewhere that w6 in sped mines is slower than w5).

But heavies cannot be detonated(that would be cruel) and go off on w7, but speed mines make shure that nobody tries w7 anyway(except real inexperienced players, but those will already fail in detonating normals).

The following uses come to my mind:

- enemy has not enough scanning and is not aware that SD ships/mines are in the area travelled - this will work only to early midgame and only a few times

- getting up a decent protection around conquered/retaken planets quickly, as speed mine layers lay rather small amounts(50) compared to heavies(200) and normal mines offer no certain protection(81 ly at w9 in normal suceeds ~15-25% ot the time, nobody would be stupid enough to try w9 in heavy minefield)

- discouraging crash sweepers, enemy sweepers will try at most w6 into mine field

- chaff sweeping is 50% more difficult due to fleet limit if there are normals, speeds and heavies compared to only normals and speeds.

- selling them to anyone paying enough(even enemies, w8 is no real hinderance)

- seldom overwhelming low beamer forces with high heavy mine laying speed

- every 3-5 games that moment of joy, when reading "fleet x stopped in heavy minefield, 1000000 damage inflicted" and kindly suggesting your enemy he should scout before sending his entire fleet at w 10 against foe with unknown PRT

But all these things are minor compared to the usefulness of speeds and normals. So my goal would be to get up any needed normal and speed field and only then i would start to build heavies and would be careful about that, because of the 512 mine fields limit.

What did i miss about heavy mines?

Carn

...

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Thu, 13 May 2004 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
vonKreedon is currently offline vonKreedon

 
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The two situations in which I have used Heavies are:
1 - Highly cloaked minelayers inserted into large planetary gaps in non-IT enemy line of supply. The Heavies put up such large fields that one Super-MineLayer can completely fill such a gap with Heavies. This tactic can take out troop carriers, mineral carriers, chaff, and cause BBs to be very severely damaged.
2 - As you mentioned, put large minefield around a planet you are bombing, or a planet of yours that is temporarily vulnerable to assault. In both of these situations you buy yourself time by forcing the enemy to start minesweeping further out, due to the size of the Heavy Minefield.

Still, IMO the use of Heavies is specialized, not a normal mine to lay as its safe speed is too high and it is expensive. My favorite SD minefield configuration is Speed Trap/Standard. The enemy is stopped by the ST and then gets the Standards detonation damage.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 07:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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I fight with heavies on border or in case of stealth operations.

The other option is Speed traps/standards on border. However opponent can make lots of shielded destroyers/cruisers in the packs of 5 and these are pretty demolition/hit proof. Speed trap layers are heavy so it is expensive to achieve 2.5 battle board speed with them and often cheap beamer cruisers are enough to skirmish such layers.

Mixing heavies with standards in border skirmish war situation gives better effect. Standards detonate and heavies do not let opponent cheap sweepers to speed too quick. Heavies are light so opponent may need to use true range 3 warships for skirmishing against shielded 2.5 movement layers. Just check that your layers lay heavies fewer or as lot as standards.

I usually use speed trap fields only in my core region just for case some wormhole pops there. Also my overcloakers lay them around stealth-attacked planets.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 07:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Minefields act as scanners, they can even spot cloaked fleets, when a 97% cloaked fleet (the typical cloaked penscan galleon) is in your field you have a 3% chance of detection (better than nothing!). Now because it's very easy to lay huge fields of heavy mines you could use those to cover all of your space with just a few fields (512 field limit as you mentioned) to act as a scanner against cloaked ships ...

mch

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 09:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Thanks for info.

Kotk wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 13:35


Heavies are light so opponent may need to use true range 3 warships for skirmishing against shielded 2.5 movement layers. Just check that your layers lay heavies fewer or as lot as standards.





That points to another advantage, on skirmish and stealth operations high speed can be neccesary and its difficult(skirmish) or foolish(stealth) to supply fuel to such ships in great amouts.

I just don't understand, why heavies should be laid in fewer or equal numbers like normals. Of course heavies alone are not very useful, but both on mini and bigmine layer hulls it would mean leaving slots empty if you want to put heavies and normals in and balance both. Does that realy drop cost significantly enough?
(I'm still tempted to fill all slots on every ship, it'll take some time to get that tendency away - or someone beating me with half equiped BBs)

Carn

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Carn wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 15:02


I just don't understand, why heavies should be laid in fewer or equal numbers like normals. Of course heavies alone are not very useful, but both on mini and bigmine layer hulls it would mean leaving slots empty if you want to put heavies and normals in and balance both. Does that realy drop cost significantly enough?



It is matter of balance. Exclamation

In his empires inner regions SD wants the fields to be as big as possible to minimize the minefield numbers that it takes to secure his territory.

At border the minefields are warfighting tool for SD. He wants to control their location. Few relatively little but well-placed fields are LOT better than big one that is badly placed. Demoliting big fields can easily kill his own or allies sweepers and chaffs. If he lay combination he wants both fields to be exactly at same spot. If he lay significally bigger heavies then different heavy fields merge, their centers shift and so can be swept separately from standards.

Other point is that filling the slots at super minelayer ends up with not gateable design.

As result SD simply harms his strategic flexibility and finesse by building unbalanced and overbloated minelayers.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 17:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Kotk wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 21:15

Carn wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 15:02


I just don't understand, why heavies should be laid in fewer or equal numbers like normals. Of course heavies alone are not very useful, but both on mini and bigmine layer hulls it would mean leaving slots empty if you want to put heavies and normals in and balance both. Does that realy drop cost significantly enough?



It is matter of balance. Exclamation

In his empires inner regions SD wants the fields to be as big as possible to minimize the minefield numbers that it takes to secure his territory.


That leads to conclusion, that SD should wait to lay heavies and speeds until he has fair idea where inner and border regions are going to be, because otherwise he might start to lay lot of small fields in an area that turns out to be secure and then has to nerve allies to sweep those fields. Normal mines do not have that problem, they vanish fast, if exploding and not replenished.
Kotk wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 21:15


At border the minefields are warfighting tool for SD. He wants to control their location. Few relatively little but well-placed fields are LOT better than big one that is badly placed. Demoliting big fields can easily kill his own or allies sweepers and chaffs. If he lay combination he wants both fields to be exactly at same spot. If he lay significally bigger heavies then different heavy fields merge, their centers shift and so can be swept separately from standards.


About placement, i think i read somewhere, that's impossible to chaffsweep mine field in plnet orbit before detonation, so if minefield is centered on planet its impossible to attack directly without receiving mine det if SD wants that. That would indicate that any endangered planet should have normal field centered on it even if rather small. Is that possible or simply too much work or too much minefields?
Kotk wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 21:15


Other point is that filling the slots at super minelayer ends up with not gateable design.


Why is gateability for
...

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 17 May 2004 18:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

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Carn wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 23:45

About placement, i think i read somewhere, that's impossible to chaffsweep mine field in plnet orbit before detonation, so if minefield is centered on planet its impossible to attack directly without receiving mine det if SD wants that. That would indicate that any endangered planet should have normal field centered on it even if rather small. Is that possible or simply too much work or too much minefields?


I just ran a test: chaff sweeping a field of which the center was in orbit of planet and which was set to detonate. I had one (unarmed) fleet enter orbit: the field was gone and the fleet that reached orbit did not got hit by a detonation.

If you do want your enemy to get caught in the detonation: set him to friend. Twisted Evil

mch

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 02:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Carn wrote on Thu, 13 May 2004 15:38

I've not yet played SD against humans, i intend to do so soon, but i've not yet figured out when and where to lay heavy mines.

I'm not an expert with SD (playing my second game as it), but have been on the receiving end of an experienced player using them (Hi Ptolemy!). I did make some conclusions.
1. If you aren't a SD then chrash-sweeping becomes MUCH more costly. That made me using the cheapest sweeper possible (DD, crobby, 2 miniguns) deep into late game, instead of scrapping the design and freeing a slot.
2. If you aren't a SD then heavy mines can replace speed-trap mines quite effectively - keeps the number of minefields for SD player down.
3. For chaff-sweeping you can use just 20% more ships. Those that miss standards almost certainly hit heavies.
4. Avoid fighting experienced SD player if you aren't ready for heavy MM Wink.
My my 2 cents.
BR, Iztok

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 11:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Carn wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 23:45


That leads to conclusion, that SD should wait to lay heavies and speeds until he has fair idea where inner and border regions are going to be, because otherwise he might start to lay lot of small fields in an area that turns out to be secure and then has to nerve allies to sweep those fields. Normal mines do not have that problem, they vanish fast, if exploding and not replenished.

Shocked Anyone should have good strategic picture where his empire lies, where its borders are and who are his neighbours. Nod SD can fill a territory with minefields rather quick, no need to lay them before hostilities start.
Quote:

About placement, i think i read somewhere, that's impossible to chaffsweep mine field in plnet orbit before detonation, so if minefield is centered on planet its impossible to attack directly without receiving mine det if SD wants that. That would indicate that any endangered planet should have normal field centered on it even if rather small. Is that possible or simply too much work or too much minefields?

SD can lay anything "when" there is danger. Others have to rely on static fields.
Quote:


Why is gateability for skirmish and stealth mine layers that important, their important tasks happen in areas with little gate presence and often not in planet orbits and they will have a good engine anyway. But they are often in dangerous positions, so they are likely to be lost, therefore price effiency seems to be far more important. And mine layers will not get outdated fast, so the travel time loss is less important(of course they should be there, when they are needed).

There should be no part of anyones border with "little gate presence" by the time he build super layers. Planet without gates is too easy to attack. The minelayers are prime skirmishing target of any opponent with brain. Now if you got unlucky and all of them were killed will you wait 5 turns until reiforcements will arrive and watch how that area is swept clean meanwhile?
Quote:


That mak
...

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19

Shocked Anyone should have good strategic picture where his empire lies, where its borders are and who are his neighbours. Nod SD can fill a territory with minefields rather quick, no need to lay them before hostilities start.


I have no experience, so i have to guess first, but i think even with experience you have problems with not knowing neighbours skills, speed of expansion, hostility,..., so there's a uncertainity on where borders will be in 10 years. But if i intend to cover core of empire in STs i prefer to start laying soon, because STs are not laid that fast.
Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19


SD can lay anything "when" there is danger. Others have to rely on static fields.


Except i think that entire empire should be at least covered by one mine type, so scanning for cloackers happens and nobody can go in w10.
Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19



You are correct that its the other slots and fuel on super layer that make it useful for military operations while the mini layer is best to be left laying speedtraps on already secured territory.
Main advantages of both special layer hulls are that they lay double and are immune to own minefield detonations. Super layer is worse cost effectively... so why to build it if you do not have special task in mind? And with special tasks there are always the balancing issues.


There's never a real use for laying lots and lots of mines in few fields? Because just for mine laying speed a full packed super layer is more cost efficient than minis.
Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:19


A little normal layer you use for fueling your transports and marking your territory early and replace it with super later. Speedtrap layer is about the same one you got initially fuel mizer 3 x ST20 and a fuel pod. You may upgrade it later into one with 2 x ST50 and better engine if you find ally who buy your initial ones or may keep building it... its cost effective enough. Super layer you start building about year 2455 when you have
...



[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 11:45]

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 17:41


I have no experience, so i have to guess first, but i think even with experience you have problems with not knowing neighbours skills, speed of expansion, hostility,..., so there's a uncertainity on where borders will be in 10 years. But if i intend to cover core of empire in STs i prefer to start laying soon, because STs are not laid that fast.

If it all was simple then noone would play stars like me ... over decade and still see some fun in it. Why not plan things ahead? For example if your plan is building fields with 80 ly radiuses you can easily see where you need other one to cover all?
Quote:

Except i think that entire empire should be at least covered by one mine type, so scanning for cloackers happens and nobody can go in w10.

You were asking particularily about laying normals exactly on each planet to detonate chaff. Your remark is correct but has nothing to do with that question. Wink
Quote:

There's never a real use for laying lots and lots of mines in few fields? Because just for mine laying speed a full packed super layer is more cost efficient than minis.

Cost efficent only if we leave non-minelayer slots on it empty and use QJ5 engine?
Quote:


You do not use all ship slots to avoid ending up with few big fields?

Damn, i thought it was mainly covering as much squareLY as possible with mines and only second thought goes to field sizes.

Too large fields need ungodly efforts to keep them up. SD will drain his economy to manage that all his empire is covered only with 4 minefields. Now check the docks... one got 512 minefields.... so if you use 50 of them to cover your empire you still have 450 left to fight on border. Wink

...

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 12:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
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Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 18:18


Quote:

There's never a real use for laying lots and lots of mines in few fields? Because just for mine laying speed a full packed super layer is more cost efficient than minis.

Cost efficent only if we leave non-minelayer slots on it empty and use QJ5 engine?




You are correct with qj5 engine difference is little, but minis are still gateable, so more cost effiecient in protecting own planets.

Carn

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 13:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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iztok wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 01:12


<snip>
4. Avoid fighting experienced SD player if you aren't ready for heavy MM Wink.
My my 2 cents.
BR, Iztok


5. Wait until Nubs, then make it just as difficult for them. Smile IS is the easiest race to counter an SD (tacheons), but any race can do it if motivated. Tacheons aren't strictly necessary. Using cloaked minelaying Nubs, you can make them feel the pain too.

Basic Ship Design:

Nub
1 Big Mutha stack
1 Best shield
4 Cloak ( 98% )
6 Mine

You already have a cloaked Nub design with scanners, right? So placement is rather simple (at least I think so).

In basic terms, you layer/leapfrog your approach to an enemy with these ships. While he can move and lay in the same turn, you can't. This means you need 2x the layers that he has to do the same job.

On the flipside, I've found that "many" SD players do not understand how to sweep effectively. So, presenting them with a minefield "wall" screws them up completely. They must seem to consider it more powerful than it really is, probably because they themself's can't cope with minefields effectively.

Some additional points for both sides.

As an SD, never leave your ML's in the same spot if you can avoid it, yoyoing is best as an SD. Seems simple enough, but I keep getting easy ML kills. Don't be predictable, either. Just in the last game, I killed >50 SML's against one of the best SD players I have ever played against. In comparison, I lost 3 of the 49 cloaked Nub minlayers I was using, and those were my own goofs...

Pairs of minelayers work great. 2 minelayers spaced apart by a few ly's, will lay a single field between them. You can leave them at that location year to year, not worring that someone will sweep to the center of the field will intercept them. Obviously, don't do this against an IS, NAS JOAT, or anyone who has proven to be an expert at finding cloaked ships...

Study the percentage chance of hitting SD minefields, and viceversa. I have noticed a trend that SD player
...




Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 13:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 18:51

You are correct with qj5 engine difference is little, but minis are still gateable, so more cost effiecient in protecting own planets

That was my point. Wink Mini layers are cost effective versus supers, so one should use supers only where the speed, maneuverability, armor and shields are important. There it usually hurts if you are unable to lay fields with right size and location and so its better to balance them. Wink

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 14:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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mlaub wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 19:04

I have noticed a trend that SD players seem to be clueless.

Shocked Laughing

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Tue, 18 May 2004 15:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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Kotk wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 13:03

mlaub wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 19:04

I have noticed a trend that SD players seem to be clueless.

Shocked Laughing



If you are going to quote someone, it is not appropriate to modify what that person said. Please edit your response accordingly, or better yet, refrain. Negative points to you!

-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Wed, 19 May 2004 03:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Kotk

 
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Sry Matt. I just could not resist. Jason Cawleys favorite was SD btw. There are quite lot of novice SD players around lately also i have noticed that some intermediates have started to pay closer attention to that PRT but assuming at first place that SD players are clueless in anything can turn out to be mistake itself.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Wed, 19 May 2004 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wizard is currently offline wizard

 
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Kotk wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 09:58

Sry Matt. I just could not resist. Jason Cawleys favorite was SD btw. There are quite lot of novice SD players around lately also i have noticed that some intermediates have started to pay closer attention to that PRT but assuming at first place that SD players are clueless in anything can turn out to be mistake itself.


Well, I think that SD is not a race for beginners. They need a lot of Micromanagement, and there are some really effective tactics, but you need some experience to make use of them. Thus, anyone who is not expert at playing SD has to look clueless, as the differences between lower and advanced playing style are so big.
In my opinion, SD is (besides CA) one of the strongest PRTs at all. You need a lot of work, you have to care for the number of minefields, but it is worth the effort. Just never play it in anything larger than normal Twisted Evil
Especially the 2 free warps through enemy mine fields are great, and of course the Lay on Arrival ability. BTW; SD is one of my favorite PRTs to play Smile

Andreas

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Wed, 19 May 2004 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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Kotk wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 02:58

Sry Matt. I just could not resist.


No problem, just didn't wanted to point it before I got lynched by an SD mob. Smile


-Matt



Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Wed, 19 May 2004 14:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mlaub is currently offline mlaub

 
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wizard wrote on Wed, 19 May 2004 07:32


Well, I think that SD is not a race for beginners. They need a lot of Micromanagement, and there are some really effective tactics, but you need some experience to make use of them...In my opinion, SD is (besides CA) one of the strongest PRTs at all.



Definitely. OTOH, SD can also be a nasty crutch to beginners. Other beginners won't know how to deal with those minefields. So, the SD player thinks he is much better than he actually is.

Case in point, my last game. I mentioned that 1 of the SD's in the game was an excellent player, but the other SD was not. It was very apparent that player did not belong in the game. He had no idea how to use minelayers in sort of effective offensive fashion. While it was very difficult for me to kill SD#1's SML's, killing SD#2's SML's was trivial.

-Matt




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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sat, 16 October 2004 13:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
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Hi everybody,

just wanted to mention one nice trick with SD and heavies:

Heavies are very light, so it is possible (once you got a warp10 engine) to build move 2.5 mini minelayers (best with ramscoop to make them cheaper).

You can build _lots_ of them very cheaply and send them into enemy space warp10. The funny part ist that to catch them the enemy must either build really fast beamers or missles. Missles cant sweep so he will end up with a lot of fast beamer ships.

The greatest fun is, that he will end up (most likely) with a lot of fast beamers, you build missleboats with some energy dampener and the enemy will have a really hard time Smile

Just one nice thing about heavies...

Robert



2b v !2b -> ?

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sat, 16 October 2004 14:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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Hi!
Robert wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 19:01

...2.5 speed mini minelayers ...
...to catch them the enemy must either build really fast beamers or missles. Missles cant sweep so he will end up with a lot of fast beamer ships.

A 2.5 speed CC is sufficient to intercept such ships. Just to let you know: such s CC is my standard heavy skirmisher. I usually build 50-100 of them in mid-game, to patroll my border. Often it replaces cheap sweepers in late game, when slots are scarce, and its price drops.
BR, Iztok

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sat, 16 October 2004 17:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
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iztok wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 19:05

Hi!
Robert wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 19:01

...2.5 speed mini minelayers ...
...to catch them the enemy must either build really fast beamers or missles. Missles cant sweep so he will end up with a lot of fast beamer ships.

A 2.5 speed CC is sufficient to intercept such ships. Just to let you know: such s CC is my standard heavy skirmisher. I usually build 50-100 of them in mid-game, to patroll my border. Often it replaces cheap sweepers in late game, when slots are scarce, and its price drops.


My understanding was that speed 2.25 with range 3 beams can hit anything. Based on this I (and from experience a lot of other players) go for this as a base. I would generally only use shorter range or slower speed beamers for counter designs.

Of course, I have no idea what happens if you stick an energy dampener on it. Can you get speed 2.5 and an ED on a MML hull ?

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Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sat, 16 October 2004 18:04 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
Micha

 

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Staz wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 23:04

Of course, I have no idea what happens if you stick an energy dampener on it. Can you get speed 2.5 and an ED on a MML hull ?


No you can't. Best movement is 2, or 2.25 with the EP. However if you put a ED on your minelayer (SML hull has room) you are also slowing down your own ships ...

mch

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