Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Primary Racial Traits » SD » When to lay heavy mines?
Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sat, 16 October 2004 20:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Staz wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 23:04

My understanding was that speed 2.25 with range 3 beams can hit anything...

... but can't escape in third round - a nice ability of a sweeper. This way I'm forcing my opponent to design 2+ speed ships to catch my CCs, or he has to use missile ships with speed of 1+ to intercept them. Either way is quite expensive for him.
BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sun, 17 October 2004 04:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
iztok wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 20:05

Hi!
Robert wrote on Sat, 16 October 2004 19:01

...2.5 speed mini minelayers ...
...to catch them the enemy must either build really fast beamers or missles. Missles cant sweep so he will end up with a lot of fast beamer ships.

A 2.5 speed CC is sufficient to intercept such ships. Just to let you know: such s CC is my standard heavy skirmisher. I usually build 50-100 of them in mid-game, to patroll my border. Often it replaces cheap sweepers in late game, when slots are scarce, and its price drops.
BR, Iztok



Well, you can do this - still the costs for such a CC is much higher than for the minilayer to catch. And the CC (even in stacks of 5) can take only one hit. So you need stacks of 5 CCs to catch one nasty minilayer - and eventually that fleet meets my missle BB with an energy dampener.
In the end the prize to catch these minilayers will be _very_ high. I dont say this tactic is not counterable, it is just very expensive...





2b v !2b -> ?

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sun, 17 October 2004 07:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
Registered: November 2003
Location: UK
iztok wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 01:13

... but can't escape in third round - a nice ability of a sweeper. This way I'm forcing my opponent to design 2+ speed ships to catch my CCs, or he has to use missile ships with speed of 1+ to intercept them. Either way is quite expensive for him.
BR, Iztok


Your opponent probably won't be using beamers with speed less than 2.25 anyway.

What about a PVT with w-10 engine, 1 organic armour, 2 bear shields, 1 best range 3 weapon and 1 overthruster ?

Speed 2.25, range 3, over 250dp each of armour and shields.

Fast enough to catch and kill the MML, can take a minefield hit, and once it kills the MML it can pick up the salvage and bring it home. Significantly cheaper than a cruiser too.

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sun, 17 October 2004 07:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
PSSSST!!! Mad

Dont tell them Very Happy

Still a nice tactic and very annoying... Smile
(and still expensive)




2b v !2b -> ?

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sun, 17 October 2004 11:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
eh... by the way 250 armour and 250 shields mean the ship does _not_ take a hit (we are talking about heavy mines here)...

But still it is a step in the right direction i guess....




2b v !2b -> ?

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Sun, 17 October 2004 13:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
Registered: November 2003
Location: UK
Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 16:06

eh... by the way 250 armour and 250 shields mean the ship does _not_ take a hit (we are talking about heavy mines here)...


Oops, yep. You would need a stack of 4 of them.

Such a stack can carry 1000kt of cargo and is quite resistant to attack (decent shields, fast mover, can fire while retreating). If your enemy can get minelayers into your shipping lanes then they can get skirmishers there too, so you'll probably want tough freighers.

That got me thinking whether a galleon hull would be better. A load of neutronium on one of these would enable it to survive a heavy mine hit. Again you'd go for warp-10, speed 2.5, range 3 beams but now armour and shields each over 1000:

Tough Freighter (NRSE/NAS/RS)
Galleon
4 x IS-10
5 x gorilla shields
2 x neutronium
1 x overthruster
1 x man jet
1 x RNA scanner
1 x heavy blaster

This is not a fully loaded design to try and keep the cost down (491 resources for the race I designed it for). You could easily add 2 more heavy blasters, another scanner, another shield, make it 2 OTs and add a couple of cloaks (now 606 resources).

Even the cheap version costs significantly more than a basic large freighter. However, if your enemy has got skirmishers or minelayers into your shipping lanes then the LF is just too vulnerable.

So, when I see that my SD enemy is running MMLs through my territory and dropping heavy minefields everywhere I shift to using the tough freighters. If these hit a mine they didn't see then they survive, if they get attacked by a skirmisher then they fire while retreating, and if they are empty they can be used to chase and kill the MMLs - and then collect the salvage.

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 02:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
Staz wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 19:55

Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 16:06

eh... by the way 250 armour and 250 shields mean the ship does _not_ take a hit (we are talking about heavy mines here)...


Oops, yep. You would need a stack of 4 of them.

Such a stack can carry 1000kt of cargo and is quite resistant to attack (decent shields, fast mover, can fire while retreating). If your enemy can get minelayers into your shipping lanes then they can get skirmishers there too, so you'll probably want tough freighers.

That got me thinking whether a galleon hull would be better. A load of neutronium on one of these would enable it to survive a heavy mine hit. Again you'd go for warp-10, speed 2.5, range 3 beams but now armour and shields each over 1000:

Tough Freighter (NRSE/NAS/RS)
Galleon
4 x IS-10
5 x gorilla shields
2 x neutronium
1 x overthruster
1 x man jet
1 x RNA scanner
1 x heavy blaster

This is not a fully loaded design to try and keep the cost down (491 resources for the race I designed it for). You could easily add 2 more heavy blasters, another scanner, another shield, make it 2 OTs and add a couple of cloaks (now 606 resources).

Even the cheap version costs significantly more than a basic large freighter. However, if your enemy has got skirmishers or minelayers into your shipping lanes then the LF is just too vulnerable.

So, when I see that my SD enemy is running MMLs through my territory and dropping heavy minefields everywhere I shift to using the tough freighters. If these hit a mine they didn't see then they survive, if they get attacked by a skirmisher then they fire while retreating, and if they are empty they can be used to chase and kill the MMLs - and then collect the salvage.



Yep - I never said it is not counterable, just that it is very expensive... And when you see the SD coming with fast heavies you need a lot of time to build these ships, move them to the front and start sweeping/skirmishing. Until then you already got a lot of space filled with he
...




2b v !2b -> ?

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 10:35

Well, you can do this - still the costs for such a CC is much higher than for the minilayer to catch. And the CC (even in stacks of 5) can take only one hit. So you need stacks of 5 CCs to catch one nasty minilayer - and eventually that fleet meets my missle BB with an energy dampener.
In the end the prize to catch these minilayers will be _very_ high. I dont say this tactic is not counterable, it is just very expensive...

The price of my CC is less then twice your MML (assuming you have bio 12 and I have weap-26), and it can kill MANY of your MMLs. I'll not sweep your existing heavy minefields with those skirmishers. I'll target your MMLs when they are on your side of the "border", and will sweep and follow your MMLs with my cheap sweeper DDs -a pair of those from different directions to every of your MMLs will be sufficient to keep your minefields down to very few, while I'll be heavily laying my minefiels to restrict your movement. Your MMLs are not able to survive the minehit...
As you see there's no big costs involved on my side, but MM requirements are tremendous. NP for me anyway. Wink
BR, Iztok

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 06:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
Staz wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 19:55



That got me thinking whether a galleon hull would be better. A load of neutronium on one of these would enable it to survive a heavy mine hit. Again you'd go for warp-10, speed 2.5, range 3 beams but now armour and shields each over 1000:

Tough Freighter (NRSE/NAS/RS)
Galleon
4 x IS-10
5 x gorilla shields
2 x neutronium
1 x overthruster
1 x man jet
1 x RNA scanner
1 x heavy blaster

This is not a fully loaded design to try and keep the cost down (491 resources for the race I designed it for). You could easily add 2 more heavy blasters, another scanner, another shield, make it 2 OTs and add a couple of cloaks (now 606 resources).

Even the cheap version costs significantly more than a basic large freighter. However, if your enemy has got skirmishers or minelayers into your shipping lanes then the LF is just too vulnerable.

So, when I see that my SD enemy is running MMLs through my territory and dropping heavy minefields everywhere I shift to using the tough freighters. If these hit a mine they didn't see then they survive, if they get attacked by a skirmisher then they fire while retreating, and if they are empty they can be used to chase and kill the MMLs - and then collect the salvage.



But the damage goes up with the number of engines, so is it realy good to use a 4 engine ship in case of minefields?

And something that i observed ones in game, but have not yet tested, is that the minimum damage to fleet is multiplied by the number of engines. An enemy BB tried to cross one of my normal minefields and it stopped and recieved 2000 points of damage, which is just 4 times the minimum damage done by normals to a single fleet.
So if thats true, a galleon containing fleet will always take at least 8000 points of damage inside a heavy field.

BTW, if thats true, and i'm going to test, when i have stars again, any idea what damage a fleet having a 4 engine non ramscoop ships and a 1 engine ram scoop fleet receives?

Carn
...

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 06:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Staz is currently offline Staz

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 514
Registered: November 2003
Location: UK
Carn wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 11:16

But the damage goes up with the number of engines, so is it realy good to use a 4 engine ship in case of minefields?

And something that i observed ones in game, but have not yet tested, is that the minimum damage to fleet is multiplied by the number of engines. An enemy BB tried to cross one of my normal minefields and it stopped and recieved 2000 points of damage, which is just 4 times the minimum damage done by normals to a single fleet.
So if thats true, a galleon containing fleet will always take at least 8000 points of damage inside a heavy field.


Ahh.

If that's the case then 4 of the PVTs may be a better idea.

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 06:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Carn wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 12:16

But the damage goes up with the number of engines, so is it realy good to use a 4 engine ship in case of minefields?

As you've already seen the answer is no. The minimum damage done to fleet is 500 (600) PER ENGINE. Two BBs would still get the same 2000 damage. But if you'd accompany that BB with a single chaff then the damage done to a fleet would be much lower. Chaff would die, but BB would be much less damaged.
The exact minehit damage formula can be found at starsFAQ: http://www.starsfaq.com/minefield.htm
BR, Iztok

(Edit: fixed URL)


[Updated on: Mon, 18 October 2004 06:59]

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 08:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Robert is currently offline Robert

 
Ensign

Messages: 361
Registered: November 2002
Location: Dortmund, Germany
iztok wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 12:16

Hi!
Robert wrote on Sun, 17 October 2004 10:35

Well, you can do this - still the costs for such a CC is much higher than for the minilayer to catch. And the CC (even in stacks of 5) can take only one hit. So you need stacks of 5 CCs to catch one nasty minilayer - and eventually that fleet meets my missle BB with an energy dampener.
In the end the prize to catch these minilayers will be _very_ high. I dont say this tactic is not counterable, it is just very expensive...

The price of my CC is less then twice your MML (assuming you have bio 12 and I have weap-26), and it can kill MANY of your MMLs. I'll not sweep your existing heavy minefields with those skirmishers. I'll target your MMLs when they are on your side of the "border", and will sweep and follow your MMLs with my cheap sweeper DDs -a pair of those from different directions to every of your MMLs will be sufficient to keep your minefields down to very few, while I'll be heavily laying my minefiels to restrict your movement. Your MMLs are not able to survive the minehit...
As you see there's no big costs involved on my side, but MM requirements are tremendous. NP for me anyway. Wink
BR, Iztok




1.) MML costs 11I 22B 17G 70R (transgascoop, 1OT 2*110heavies)
2.) CC costs 39I 46B 23G 109R (transgal, 4 gattling, 2 OT, 2 en14shields)

this is what i would think about as a counter, you may have different ideas, but this is a very cheap CC that survives exactly one hit (in stacks of 5).

the MML is much cheaper, and you need stacks of 5.

next is that I will not be that stupid to move my ships unprotectd, I would merge them at some point, use split fleet doge tricks to make it hard for you to get them, moving in and out of existing minefields, and move some to places that are protected by my own battleships. And your own minefields wount help you much as SD is best at sweeping....

I guess you would have _serious_ trouble to counter my MMLs this way... If the SD is stupid it is of course easy...

...




2b v !2b -> ?

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1180
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Robert wrote on Mon, 18 October 2004 14:24

1.)1.) MML costs 11I 22B 17G 70R (transgascoop, 1OT 2*110heavies)
2.) CC costs 39I 46B 23G 109R (transgal, 4 gattling, 2 OT, 2 en14shields)

With R2 weapons that CC is unusable as an interceptor. And I'll use it STRICTLY as an interceptor. Sweeping WP-1 laid fields, and your old fields do DDs, LOTS of them. Besides, you're fighting in MY space. Who will have more/better ships there?

Quote:

I guess you would have _serious_ trouble to counter my MMLs this way...

've won wars against experienced SD players, am preparing to kill another one (hi, Sinla Twisted Evil ). I have yet to met the SD player that puts in the game more MM than I do.
BR, Iztok


[Updated on: Mon, 18 October 2004 09:43]

Report message to a moderator

Re: When to lay heavy mines? Mon, 18 October 2004 14:30 Go to previous message
multilis is currently offline multilis

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 789
Registered: October 2003
Location: Edmonton, Canada
Quote:

I've not yet played SD against humans, i intend to do so soon, but i've not yet figured out when and where to lay heavy mines

Heavies are the lightest minelayers... easiet to overcloak, easiest on fuel supply. Mml with a single heavy layer can be a nice part of a small tactical cloaked fleet.

Heavies are most useful in large areas with only sparce density of warships (enemy has to chase at higher warp). Heavies are the most dangerous to try to crash/sweep destroy into small fields when only maybe 40% chance of hitting minefield.

Heavies are also nice for ship trade. Useful for friends but if they ever betray you, you can travel through them at warp 8 with no danger (SD gets 2 extra warp levels safe).


[Updated on: Mon, 18 October 2004 17:50]

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: SD and cloaking minelayers
Next Topic: Crash sweeping to the centre of a detonating field (split from "The necessity for missiles"
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Mon Dec 18 05:46:45 EST 2017