Home » Primary Racial Traits » AR » Start colonization help
Start colonization help |
Thu, 13 May 2004 07:52 |
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slms | | Crewman 2nd Class | Messages: 18
Registered: March 2004 Location: Portugal | |
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Hi People,
I'm quite frustrated with AR (but I still like them )...
I can't figure out how to get those little guys archive 25k by 2450 in a tiny/normal AccBBS testbed... I tried everything, non-immunities(1/4 planets), 1-immunity(1/[4,6,10]), 2-immunities(1/4), tri-immunities, TT/non-immunities, TT/1-immunity, you name it.
I had used other people posted races and try to design my own, never passed from 16k and only building empty hull (not practical in real games)...
I readied all the post I could found and, as people had post years before that it is possible, the problem must the player, not the race
Please, tell me, how you start colonize other worlds in the first 25 years (2400-2425)?
- Sequential or Parallel?
- From the best hab to the lowest greens?
- Using yellows one? maybe red?
- When to switch from the 25% pop to 50% pop?
- What is your research breakpoint in this start time-line?
Thank you,
-- Sergio Silva
[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2004 07:53] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Start colonization help |
Thu, 13 May 2004 19:32 |
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Regarding the research break points:
Energy is a no brainer, up to around level 10, then construction starts to get to be more effective at increasing resources.
Construction influences resources (level 12 for ultrastation IF you chose ISB, then level 17 for deathstars)
You also want construction and elect tech for mining, this is dependent somewhat on your circumstances (if you don't need to build warships, you can *almost* avoid building miners altogether.)
Large freighter tech helps *a lot*. It's especially crucial for AR that the population is moved at maximium speed.
Regarding pop-hold points:
You need to maximise your population. 25% - 33% holds on all high green worlds are important. Try to avoid wasting resources terraforming red and yellow worlds until you really have to. If you can spare the resources/minerals/pop it is worth throwing tiny colonies on the red and yellow planets just for the resources they provide (remember your resources per world are dependent on the sqrt of the population, so tiny populations on reds can often actually provide more resources than they would as additional population on already populated green.)
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Re: Start colonization help |
Thu, 13 May 2004 19:39 |
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Quote: | Sequential or Parallel?
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Parallel. Definately.
If you have 2 worlds with similar hab, then split your population evenly between them to maximise resources gained.
Obviously if you find a 100% world, then you still want to maximise growth by bringing it up to 25% ASAP, but if you also have a 95% world available, then I'd split my population between them.
If you find any worlds over 50%, then colonise them immediately.
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Re: Start colonization help |
Thu, 13 May 2004 23:21 |
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No, I'm afraid it isn't. All you have done there is to maximise the actual growth at that particular planet.
After the population of the planet hits 25%, then each additional colonist grows at a reduced rate. You start to hit negative growth with each colonist once you hit 33%.
The key there is that until you hit 33% each additional colonsit does produce *some* growth. However the effective growth of those last few % is dramatically below your race's growth rate. If you instead sent those additional colonists to another lower hab world then they would still grow faster.
Example: growth of 33% pop on a single 100% world will be lower than the combined growth of 32% pop on a single 100% world and 2% pop on a 50% world.
I got into quite an invloved discussion about growth maximisation recently in the Academy, I'll go find you a link so you can take a look.
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Re: Start colonization help |
Fri, 14 May 2004 02:28 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 01:32 | Energy is a no brainer, up to around level 10, then construction starts to get to be more effective at increasing resources...
Large freighter tech helps *a lot*.
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I'd disagree with energy up to 10. You'd face BIG mineral crunch if not researching large freighters and decent remote miners ASAP. So my path is:
- en-5 (resources),
- con-3 and prop-2 (medium freighter with FM as first pop mover, but don't build much of them),
- en-6 and/or con 8 for LF and SFX,
- elec-4 (maxi-miner-robot (aim at 2-4 robots per average planet, 6-8 for rich),
- then some en (6,7,8 ) and
- straight up to con 12 (UltraStation) around turn 30. Somewhere in between those stages weap-1 and 5 and bio-1 and 2 for terra-3/7.
- Prop-9 for far-going W9 LFs (you'll need those with double the pop growth from Ultras).
- After that en-10 and bio-3 for resources, trade and terra-11 and
- Bio-4 (minelayers) and weap-12 for defense and terra,
- con-13 for BBs and 300/500 gates,
- elec-6 for super-robo-miner (to make them gateable use a single robot in a mini-miner hull, FM of QJ-5 engine).
After I'm through this list (usually turn 40-45) and there's peace in my neighbourhood I'd go for en-15 (resources, terra and trade) and con-17 (DeathStar), while trading for other tech. This way I can usually avoid big iron crunch, and have decent supply of minerals to run colony drive, and even defend myself against a non-determined ("let's just try") attacker.
Well, a bit more than just .
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Fri, 14 May 2004 02:49] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Start colonization help |
Fri, 14 May 2004 03:59 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 14 May 2004 05:21 | No, I'm afraid it isn't. All you have done there is to maximise the actual growth at that particular planet.
After the population of the planet hits 25%, then each additional colonist grows at a reduced rate. You start to hit negative growth with each colonist once you hit 33%.
The key there is that until you hit 33% each additional colonsit does produce *some* growth. However the effective growth of those last few % is dramatically below your race's growth rate. If you instead sent those additional colonists to another lower hab world then they would still grow faster.
Example: growth of 33% pop on a single 100% world will be lower than the combined growth of 32% pop on a single 100% world and 2% pop on a 50% world.
I got into quite an invloved discussion about growth maximisation recently in the Academy, I'll go find you a link so you can take a look.
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You are correct about optimising growth, thanks, i learned something.
But with AR i think its still different, than with other races, because putting lot of resources into con(12) and en(10) research is essential(other races can live with privateers+fm and smallest gate and no other tech until wars start) and optimizing growth rates the way you calculated needs lots of freighters, maybe 2-3 per planet above the initial 2200 pop AR colonizes with.
I think it might be better to research directly LFs and remove pop from breeder worlds only every other turn(and that way have nearly filled LFs). That of course reduces both pop growth and resources produced, but saves lots of min and the amout put into research gets greater, alowing ultras around 2425(if brave enough to skip we until then) or even a bit earlier.
Further about en, you should consider closely whether researching en or terraforming increases your resources better(of course terra also increases growth). E.g.(sorry, no exact numbers) going from en9 to 10 costs around 2000 resources and increases production for all planets by roughly 5%. If
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[Updated on: Fri, 14 May 2004 04:11] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Start colonization help |
Mon, 17 May 2004 07:08 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 09:12 |
Terraforming: Nice point about drawing the cost comparison between terraforming and research. However please don't forget that when you terraform you are increasing your PGR as well as produced resources, so I would continue to terraform 60%+ planets. (Related to this: a nice 'trick' with terraforming is to have at least one narrow hab (while keeping planet count equal) as this exagerates the impact of early terraforming.)
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I suggested not to terraform 60%+ worlds very early and meant with very early before turn 20. The later the game, the higher your en level and the better effiency of terraforming(depending on TT and immunities and hab width and actual planet values, e.g. the well known -1%(85%) planet shouls be terraformed asap), the earlier you should terraform all planets. But the main example i had in mind are the first colonized worlds, you can get before you have en6+, for those worlds its normally better to do research, than terraforming. Certainly above en10 terraforming is always better.
Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 17 May 2004 09:12 |
Population balancing: You don't need any more freighters to send your population to 2 worlds than it does to send them to 1. I'm not suggesting sending near empty freighters all over the place, I'm just recommending you choose a healthy variety of destinations
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If you use MFs or Privs yes, but not if you use LFs. LF might take population growth of 2-3 years. Keeping pop at optimal values for growth requires picking up colonist every year, that does not change number of neccesary MFs, but rougly double number of LFs, which would make using LFs useless, until Ultras. So by taking colonist up only every 2 or 3 turns, you need 1 LF instead of the 4-6 MFs, you would use when you want to get optimal growth. That saves resources+ mins and costs growth + resource production. Depends on race design and highly on HW mins which is more optimal, if HW mins are not enough to produce MFs + colony ships(happens often to me, even with picking up mins at new colonies), there might be still enough mins to produce small number of LFs+ enough colony ships.
Carn
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Re: Start colonization help |
Mon, 17 May 2004 18:15 |
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I still disagree somewhat on the terraforming - I'd rather let my resources fall slightly behind in the very early game in order to increase my early population growth (which will in turn generate greater resources in the medium and long term.)
It's all a big balancing act, to ensure you have crucial technologies at the correct times (MF, LF, Ultrastation/DS, Mining hulls/bots, engines, weapons, etc...) to maximise your growth. Often it is better to let your resource count take a short term hit in order to ensure you meet a vital requirement (easy example is letting resources take a loss to get weapons tech...)
When I use LFs, I usually send them out only partially full (so they can travel at max warp.) If minerals are particularly tight, then yes, I would also only send population on alternate years. I'm not too concerned with trying to keep pop on individual worlds at the exact optimum level, but more concerned with making sure the transiting population is directed to the optimum locations.
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Re: Start colonization help |
Tue, 18 May 2004 11:31 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23 | I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?
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Played 3 games as an AR against humans, mineral shortage in every game, not able to build enough transports to keep HW at holding level and that was with 15% growth ... always needed to build extra miners.
(Don't remember the iron concentrations of the HW, or of the closest planets, but you should never count on being lucky anyway.)
mch
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Re: Start colonization help |
Tue, 18 May 2004 11:48 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23 |
I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?
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Read other posts before asking? Like Iztok said above:
- en-5 (resources),
- con-3 and prop-2 (medium freighter with FM as first pop mover, but don't build much of them),
- en-6 and con 8 for LF and SFX,
Note, NO PRIVATEERS and no much med freighters!!! Now its turn 11-12 and you already build large freighters and build them and no other crap. If your homeworld is partially low with ironium then carry that ironium from planets where you transported pop back to homeworld. Must be enough to keep building transports + about 2 pintas per turn.
Iztok continued:
- elec-4 (maxi-miner-robot (aim at 2-4 robots per average planet, 6-8 for rich),
Here i do it bit differently ... i build these maxi miners *only* at homeworld and only if i have high (above 60) iron worlds (no matter if colonized) around it (within 72ly) so these miners pay plentily back with next 15 years, after what i have usually reached constuction 12 (and start building true miners). If there is still mineral problem i build large freighters and pintas at other colonies.
Rest of the Iztok's early path was quite similar to mine.
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Re: Start colonization help |
Tue, 18 May 2004 11:56 |
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Carn | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 16:23 |
Carn wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 03:21 |
Never happend to me that mins were not particular tight, before con7 miners and i prefer to skip those and start with con12 miners, saves lots of resources.
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I've yet to play AR against humans, but I've been testbedding recently. In my testbeds I always run into a mineral shortage early, particularly Ir as I build PVTs. How do you manage to skip straight to the Con12/Elec6 RSM? I have been forced in all my testbeds to build several, ~10-12, Con4/Elec2 RM miners. What might I be doing wrong?
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I simply do that by ignoring HW hitting 25%(or 33%) and build no MFs or Privs at all and no terraform. I go directly to con8 and then only take colonist every other turn. When i get con8 i have to build 2-3 LFs to get pop back to 25-30% and afterwards i need at most a new one every 2 years. Though i play 15-16% growth and 1/1000 efficiency, with 19% and 1/2500 efficiency i would do different, it would take forever to get con8. That way i'm sacrificing growth for more con tech and save minerals. That way i hope to get to con12 fast enough. But take care i only ran testbeds so far(got con 8 in 2407-10, got con12 in 2424-25 and con12 miners build in 2428 with no we research till then), i'm in first game in twenties now and already behind plan, i had to do some we research, because of uncertain neighbour and terraform requirements. Don't know if this works.
But i think you should nearly always try to skip con4 miners, they are rather expensive and with con cheap(nearly must have for AR) con 7 miners are not far away.
Carn
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Re: Start colonization help |
Tue, 18 May 2004 13:39 |
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Kotk | | Commander | Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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vonKreedon wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 19:00 |
Yeah, but the actual Starter Colony is inarguably meat.
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Upgrade from starter colony to starter colony with 2 blue lasers and one cow shield at technology 5/0/2/0/0/0 costs 1 ironium, 5 boraniums, 1 germanium and 6 resources. Red planet with only 1800 pop on ground generates 8 resources per turn at same tech. So armed probes arent threat to anyone armed only with bare hands + brain!!!
Quote: | And any OF at beginning game tech levels is meat to any set of actual warships and I can't build an SD with only 2,200+ people on the ground. So again, how does one protect new colonies if not pushing population to them and building armed SDs?
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that 22 pop generates about 22 resources. That is enough to put up 7 cow shields + 4 blue lasers with one turn. It makes range 2 beamer with 40 dp weapon power, 100 armor and 392 shields regenning 39dp per turn. And who said you may not upgrade it further next turn?
But no need ... it alone can kill yakimora DD. Anyone who builds anything even better than few yaki DD-s before turn 30 is quite likely an idiot.
[Updated on: Tue, 18 May 2004 13:51] Report message to a moderator
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