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LRTs Tue, 11 May 2004 17:12 Go to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land...
 I have been working on the Race wizard, and I have a question addresed to all you: I know that there is a penalty for selecting to many LRTs, and I have that figured out. What I want to know is if this is afected by positive or negative ones. I heard something to this effect once, but can't find it, and I don't want to do that much fiddeling Sad if someone already has the answers. Thanks

-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: LRTs Tue, 11 May 2004 21:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
 I'm fairly certain that the penalty starts with 4 LRTs or 3 all good or all bad ones. I'm not sure how they interact if you start piling on more LRTs or if 3 and 1 bad has a worse penalty then 2 and 2. or 4 all good or all bad.

Sorry I can't be more of a help then that.

When designing a race I tend to pick the LRTs that I need and then look at the costs of adding the ones I want.

- LEit

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Re: LRTs Wed, 12 May 2004 05:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
I'm certain that 4+ good(normally costing points) or bad(normally giving points) LRTs carry penalty and that 5+ good and bad LRTs carry penalty. So having 3g,1b or 2g,2b or 1g,3b or less does not give penalty.
The amount of penalty depends on the value of the LRTs selected. For example having 2g,2b and selecting GR cost 3 points, while normally GR gives 13, so penalty is 16, while i think NAS gives normally something like 105 and selected as 5th its worth ~80, so penalty is larger with NAS than GR.
Carn

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Re: LRTs Wed, 12 May 2004 17:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land...
 Wall Bash I hate complicated things like that. Well, I'll get on it as soon as I demolish another hapless planet of the Robots. Twisted Evil

-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: LRTs Thu, 13 May 2004 07:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slms is currently offline slms

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 18
Registered: March 2004
Location: Portugal
 Hi icebird,

I'm new to stars but as far as I had noticed from my many frustrated tries with the wizard, it seems that the penalty applies for the total LRTs, no matter if they are good or bad, more then 4 and you loose points...

I hope it helps some how.

-- Sergio Silva

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Re: LRTs Thu, 13 May 2004 08:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
slms wrote on Thu, 13 May 2004 13:27

Hi icebird,

I'm new to stars but as far as I had noticed from my many frustrated tries with the wizard, it seems that the penalty applies for the total LRTs, no matter if they are good or bad, more then 4 and you loose points...

I hope it helps some how.

-- Sergio Silva



I'm certain that 4 bad LRTs carry a penalty. I have no race wizard at the moment(where do you get wine?), but i know that NRSE gives around 55-60 points, but picking NRSE after already having OBRM, NAS and CE(we all have that phase, where we do anything to get points for economy page) it gives only 36. And selecting LSP next only gives 16-20 points instead off normal 60.

I cannot remember 4 good LRTs exactly, i didn't look often enough at that, but i think its same.

But 4 LRTs with at least 1 good and 1 bad does not carry penalty(i am playing such a race now and remember fiddling around with LRT changes).

BTW, the penalty is increasing, so if you select everything except NAS and then select NAS i think it costs points. Therefore going beyond 5-6 LRTs is often waste of points.

Carn

[Updated on: Thu, 13 May 2004 08:46]

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Re: LRTs Thu, 13 May 2004 12:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land...
 Thanks for the help. That, AR and habs are teh only things left to do. Unfortunatly, those are the most complex things, Rolling Eyes so it may take a while.

-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: LRTs Thu, 13 May 2004 15:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
I just checked good LRTs and 4 good LRTs alone already carry a penalty.

And anything that costs points is a good LRT, so anything on the left of race wizard side except GR.

And if everything is selected except OBRM, OBRM costs 8-9 points.

Carn

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Re: LRTs Mon, 17 May 2004 09:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
Found short article at http://www.students.uwosh.edu/~bushd25/sdb/index.htm
which seems correct to me.
Only "For the rest of this article, only the sign counts; whether or not the cost is close to 0 is irrelevant. ( resistance is futile Wink )" is wrong as far as i know, i think extra cost depend slightly on the cost of LRTs you selected, but i will test that. I remember for example that i once had a race where selecting BET didn't cost or gave any points, but thats impossible with the numbers in that article, best you could get there is BET costing 23-14-17=-8 points.

Carn

[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2004 09:23]

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Re: LRTs Wed, 19 May 2004 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
My mistake, article is correct, BET as 6th LRT does not cost or give any points, as going from 5 to 6 LRTs, if difference between good and bad is less than 4, increases penalty just by 23 and BET gives normally 23. Same for other LRTs, article correct.
The above link does not lead directly to article, you have to select on the page "lesser racial traits" and then "Costs of LRTs: How they interact with PRTs and other LRTs, by Nachtergal Philippe".

Carn

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Re: LRTs Wed, 19 May 2004 06:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
Here's copy(with some changes of typos) in case site vanishes:

All tests were made starting with the "standard" humanoids.

Costs for all the lrts were (if only 1 is checked) as this :
IFE -78 NRSE 53
TT -140 CE 80
ARM -53 OBRM 85
ISB -67 NAS 95 (JOAT only)
GR 13 LSP 60
UR -80 BET 23
MA -51 RS 10

Advantages have negative costs. Disadvantages positive costs.

For the rest of this article, only the sign counts; whether or not the cost is close to 0 is irrelevant. ( resistance is futile Wink )

The only one that differed when changing PRT was NAS.

NAS Standard cost is 108
JOAT: 95
SS : 41
PP : 15

All others never varied by more than +- 1

Now, back to the standard JOAT Humanoids: what happens if Icheck more than one LRT?

Soon enough, you lose extra points for checking many LRTs.

Making a complete analysis, two clear factors showed:

1. The number of LRTs checked
2. The difference between the number of Advantages checked and the number of disadvantages checked.

Both factors are cumulative.

Here are complete results:

Cost for LRTs 0 to 4 LRTs 0
5 LRTs -17
6 LRTs -40
7 LRTs -70
8 LRTs -107
9 LRTs -151
10 LRTs -201
11 LRTs forget it

Costs for advantages
v. disadvantages #adv = #dis 0
#adv = #dis +/- 1 0
#adv = #dis +/- 2 0
#adv = #dis +/- 3 0
#adv = #dis + 4 -14
#adv = #dis - 4 -20
#adv = #dis + 5 -27
#adv = #dis - 5 -40

So for exemple,if you check 5 advantages and 1 disadvantage, you'll pay 40+14=54 points more than you would have thought.

The only situation I've found where you gain a few extra points for checking a additionnal LRT is if you already have 4 disadv. and no advantage (-20) and choose to pick an advantage: you end at -17 (gain of 3). (you still have to pay the standard cost for that new advantage).

Cost of TT also depends a LOT on your Habitat settings (both hab range and pop growth). No other LRT does.

I haven't seen any connection between costs of LRTs and mine/factory/tech settings but I haven't thoroughly tested that.

That's all for now.

Thufir Hawat.(aka Nachtergal Philippe)

[Updated on: Wed, 19 May 2004 06:31]

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Re: LRTs Wed, 19 May 2004 10:40 Go to previous messageGo to next message
icebird is currently offline icebird

 
Chief Warrant Officer 3

Messages: 178
Registered: September 2003
Location: In LaLa land...
 Yay! it is much simpler than the long complex formula I had worked out. Rolling Eyes
Now if onyl there was something so simple for the Habs vs PGR.

-Peter, Lord of the Big Furry Things

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Re: LRTs Wed, 19 May 2004 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Carn is currently offline Carn

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003
I've not tested all the numbers, just some, so there might be an error left.

Carn

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Re: LRTs Tue, 08 March 2005 12:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
I posted this elsewhere on the forum:

Let N = negative LRTs
P = positive LRTs

Let T=N+P

If T>4

penalty points = T*(T-4)*10

Let R=P-N

If R>3

penalty points = 60 * R

Let Q=N-P

If Q>3

penalty points = 40 * Q

penalty points are computed for each case (obviously the last 2 are mutually exclusive).

PENALTY POINTS ARE AN INTERNAL MEASURE AND DON'T CORRESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE RACE POINTS.

Comparing with the earlier post:

Cost for LRTs 0 to 4 LRTs 0
5 LRTs -17
6 LRTs -40
7 LRTs -70
8 LRTs -107
9 LRTs -151
10 LRTs -201

and doing some maths, you'll see that it is consistent (after translation from internal points to race points).

I pulled the formulas directly from the EXE code.

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Re: LRTs Tue, 08 March 2005 17:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
PricklyPear wrote on Tue, 08 March 2005 12:53

PENALTY POINTS ARE AN INTERNAL MEASURE AND DON'T CORRESPOND DIRECTLY TO THE RACE POINTS.


What is the conversion from 'Penalty points' to Race points?

- LEit

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Re: LRTs Wed, 09 March 2005 05:35 Go to previous message
PricklyPea is currently offline PricklyPea

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 534
Registered: February 2005
LEit wrote on Tue, 08 March 2005 17:32


What is the conversion from 'Penalty points' to Race points?


For the example above, try dividing by 3.

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