Quote:

For HE or IT it is wasted points.

I can't say that I've played HE much at all, so I'm half inclined to accept your statement at face value, but it does strike me that a race without gates and requiring rapid expansion to survive should need the FM more than most.
Sure they have the SD, but it can only be placed on the mini-coloniser and we all know what happens to a HE's colonies if they're not quickly topped up with a whole heap more people.

Now I realise that a lot of players don't think IFE to be necessary with IT, but I have reservations about that. You still have the higher germ cost of non FM engines and building all these extra ships (as fuel boosters) still costs your economy both in resources and minerals. Some people might argue that IT doesn't need extra fuel boosters when using DLL's, but I still perceive not having the FM to be a serious impediment to rapid growth.
I'd certainly love to hear plenty more opinions specifically on whether IT should choose IFE or not though.

Quote:

For AR it is kind of 50/50.

Again with AR I have concerns about not choosing IFE. After all, the longer time it takes to arrive at your destination, the more colonists you lose.

Quote:

Since PP is very rarely played and CA is almost always banned... it makes 30% of PRT-s do not use IFE. Considering the economy models we see that NF and 1WW can also use IFE points elsewhere.

Ah yes but you're cheating there
You can't include races that are rarely played (PP / CA) and then say that it means 30% of PRT's don't use IFE (even though technically your statement is quite possibly true). A fairer analysis would be take a cross section of actual races used in real games and determine how many of those should/should not have utilised IFE and generate a percentage from there.

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Didnt you note he suggested taking ISB instead of ife... no go and compare dock and station germ costs and then tell us about 3 germ again.

Now that's certainly a valid point, but I generally find that by the time I'm ready to build gates at other worlds, I'm starting to generate a fair bit of germ at my HW. This can either be shipped out via Privateers utilising the FM or via the new gate at the planet to rapidly generate more factories (and therefore more mines).
My biggest concern is at the very start when you need the germ the most and these DLL's (one for every single ship) costing 3 germ each.
Truth be known, I don't mind too much if I get stuck with a 30% germ mineral concentration on my HW, because I figure that everyone else copped it too. Low Iron is a bummer because then I have to build the almost useless MF's therefore using more germ (and they suck!!!).

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

I can't say that I've played HE much at all

Quote:

I'd certainly love to hear plenty more opinions specifically on whether IT should choose IFE or not though.

Visit the IT and HE sections then.

Quote:

Again with AR I have concerns about not choosing IFE.

Why so? I have sometimes had about 50k with IFE-less AR in small packed testbed. AR you also note dont have your "germ problem".

Quote:

You can't include races that are rarely played (PP / CA) and then say that it means 30% of PRT's don't use IFE (even though technically your statement is quite possibly true).

AR, IT, HE, IS, CA and PP are 60%. So i did not cheat at all saying 30%.

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Lots of alternatives that may apply depending on your usual QS w IFE settings a) more mines and/or cheaper mines and/or more mine efficiency. b) micromanage building queue better. Start earlier building mines on your HW rather than factories.

That's getting back to the point I made earlier.
If you build mines instead of factories, then you're slowing your initial economy down. We all know that you need mines, but once you have quite a few factories, you can build so many more mines and therefore more factories. The compounding effect is enormous.

Quote:

c) micromanage transports more carefully to increase turn around times (less then needed). I took over for a bit for 2 other players when they had vacations. In each case, by very carefully micromanaging the ship hops I could sqeeze more speed/transporting out. Later in game no time for this but IFE only matters in early going.

Yes I always do this whether I've chosen IFE or not. The FM always does it better of course.

Quote:

d) choose factories use one less germ if didn't otherwise

Difficult not to choose this one. For a cost of "around" 58 points it's very good value.
I can't remember the last time I didn't choose it!

Quote:

e) improved starbases for stardocks if not otherwise (as Kotk mentions)

As already responded, refer my other post.

Quote:

f) improved stardocks + ultimate recycling with something else more expensive to pay can be used to reclaim germ out of early ugly transports while boosting hub colonies. Turning transports into resources with UR on a high germ hub colony means the germ from the colony starts flowing faster to supply the local surrounding small colonies.

Not many players choose UR and the reason is because value for money it's not I'd take IFE anyday.

Remember too that's it's not only for the benefit of obtaining the FM that you choose IFE. 15% less fuel usage on all engines for the entire game is quite significant. Admittedly the advantage is greatest in the first 20 years (depending on racial type/style of play), but that's when you need it the most.

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Visit the IT and HE sections then.

Yes I've had a good read through the IT section already. I've run various tests and I'm still not convinced that non-IFE is better.

Quote:

Why so? I have sometimes had about 50k with IFE-less AR in small packed testbed. AR you also note dont have your "germ problem".

Well I'll confess upfront that I've never played AR.
The whole concept of my opponent targetting the starbase first and wiping out 3 million colonists is most unappealing.
Anyhow, valid point about not having a germ problem, but still the concern about speed. Yes you can build more ships as boosters, but that's taking away from your research into Energy - which of course is the AR factory equivalent.
Anyhow, I will concede that AR is a better candidate than most PRT's for not choosing IFE, but I still have reservations.

Quote:

AR, IT, HE, IS, CA and PP are 60%. So i did not cheat at all saying 30%.

Ah yes, I forgot to rebut your inclusion of IS in that lot.
IS admittedly has a very handy fuel transport available early (have to research cons4), but the hull itself costs 5 germ and then you have to add the germ cost of whatever engine you use. Which comes back to my point again of needing as much germ in the early years as you can get to build factories, factories, factories.

Anyhow, as per my earlier post:

Quote:

Ah yes but you're cheating there You can't include races that are rarely played (PP / CA) and then say that it means 30% of PRT's don't use IFE (even though technically your statement is quite possibly true). A fairer analysis would be take a cross section of actual races used in real games and determine how many of those should/should not have utilised IFE and generate a percentage from there.

My point about generating a percentage of actual races played is still more relevant The PRT's in your list are more likely to be banned than the ones you didn't choose, ie. WM, Joat, SS, SD. The exception would be IS. Can't say I've ever seen that PRT banned.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 August 2004 18:49]

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

I've run various tests and I'm still not convinced that non-IFE is better.

Probably beacause you play IT as HP? HP IT is strange beast. Quite playable so I have seen them lot around. On the other hand i have very rarely seen them winning games.

Quote:

Yes you can build more ships as boosters, but that's taking away from your research into Energy - which of course is the AR factory equivalent.

With AR i have ironium problem instead... so i usually research large freighters by turn 11 or so. Can build one large freighter for cost of 2 privateers and have double fuel as well.

Quote:

IS admittedly has a very handy fuel transport available early (have to research cons4), but the hull itself costs 5 germ and then you have to add the germ cost of whatever engine you use.

IS can also afford to arrive a year later. It grows on the road better than at the average colony planet.

Note that you are talking about these 3 germaniums like these are saving some major $$$. Dont you see that this IFE costs like 1 resource more from 10 factories? Say your 10 factories give 12 resources and you got IFE, other guys 10 factories give 13 resources he got no IFE. Now you can build 21 factories since you got 3 more germ, and have 25.2 resources, he can build only 20 factories and have 26 resources. Who componds better? And do not forget he got 8% more econ per planet once done.

[Updated on: Fri, 27 August 2004 19:33]

Report message to a moderator

[Updated on: Fri, 27 August 2004 19:29]

Report message to a moderator

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Probably beacause you play IT as HP? HP IT is strange beast. Quite playable so I have seen them lot around. On the other hand i have very rarely seen them winning games.

Yes quite true. One thing I've never mastered is how to effectively design and play -f.
I'll learn it one day when I make sufficient time and then I won't have to fuss as much about germ.

Quote:

The superior alternative may be to build a certain number of factories, then switch to mines, then switch back. You take the extra germ and feed it to the most important colonies.

That's absolutely spot on!
The idea is to build factories until you're just about to run out of germ, then build a whole stack of mines. The following year you still have enough germ to build more factories and the year after that, the newly built mines will have produced enough germ to build more factories again. Very soon you have enough spare germ to start shipping it out to your colonies.

Quote:

Prop 9 scoops on a lg freighter gives you a great range, and they are dirt cheap.

"Dirt cheap" is a relative term.
First you need to research to Prop9 (2-4 levels assuming IT and depending on LRT's) thereby taking away from factory and mine building. It also initially costs 12 germ (assuming non-CE) whereas the FM doesn't.
I totally agree that the Prop9 scoop is an excellent engine, but the FM tends to last me a long, long time. Not only is it quite a decent and inexpensive engine, but coupled with 15% less fuel consumption and no extra research required, it's pretty hard to beat.
Remember too, by the time Prop9 is researched the FM is already starting to cost less, due to miniturisation, whereas the Prop9 scoop is only just coming online and is therefore at full cost.
Something else that hasn't been highlighted is that the FM is well suited to place on DD, FF and CC hulls. It's cheap thereby reducing the cost per ship. Of course you could choose CE to make your engines cheaper, but the unreliability of all ships travelling in excess of warp6 is then a significant concern for the rest of the game.

Quote:

Lg freighters are so much more eff than privateers and mediums, that I try to jump right to them. The side effect is that you get the better fuel transport at con tech 8.

Can't disagree with you there. LF's are far better than PVT's. I do find that, due to their extra carrying capacity, they need more of a fuel boost, but since you have SFX's available already it's no longer a problem. By then you should also have plenty of excess germ, so the building of factories is no longer handicapped by the need for transports.

Quote:

I can manage it with non-IFE/cheap prop combo.

It's a fairly close call, but choosing "IFE/Prop expensive" gives you a few more points than "non-IFE/Prop cheap".
Considering that I would still have to initially research Prop8/9, that the FM costs less and I get 15% less fuel consumption on all engines, I'd still rather choose IFE.

[Updated on: Sat, 04 September 2004 22:13] by Moderator

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Note that you are talking about these 3 germaniums like these are saving some major $$$. Dont you see that this IFE costs like 1 resource more from 10 factories? Say your 10 factories give 12 resources and you got IFE, other guys 10 factories give 13 resources he got no IFE. "Now you can build 21 factories since you got 3 more germ", and have 25.2 resources, he can build only 20 factories and have 26 resources. Who componds better? And do not forget he got 8% more econ per planet once done.

<edit>Oh, hang on a minute. I re-read your statement and now I get what you're saying. Yes your point is somewhat valid.<edit>
I get the bit about eventually being able to build a better economy because you had more starting points by not choosing IFE, but if your engines cost "3 germ per engine built" and you build 50-100 early ships, then that's a cost of "one factory not built per ship" (assuming G box ticked).
Your resources per factory built will eventually be better, but your initial overall resources won't be because you have a shortage of germ.
My point is about getting the race off to a reasonably good start and thereby (hopefully) grabbing more colonies than the other guy with slow and expensive engines

[Updated on: Sat, 28 August 2004 05:29]

Report message to a moderator

Actually, Steve, i think you get it wrong that we tell you that IFE is not worth its points. It often is. Like i said i think majority of successful race designs still have it and lot of unsuccessful ones miss it. Just that me and others have played and won several games without. The edge was taken from points left unspent at IFE or even from taking CE. Both these LRT-s may seem to be counter-intuitive when we talk of quick starters but these points were well-spent to sharpen other edges so its possible to live without IFE.

Think ... why Matt sits there and carefully runs few test runs to get his IFE-less design ticking? Somehow these 3 germaniums do not feel when battling him.
I have seen that the privateers with IFE often have way too lot of fuel. I have felt it like a (bit unneccessary) luxury sometimes. Meanwhile talking of quickstarts i have lost few valuable years (and resources for a decent attack fleet) to build the stations all over the place since i got no ISB and i have seen how i somehow am short of ironium instead of germanium when preparing for early or midgame battle. At endgame i have had to fight that uphill battle against TS-10 nubians with IS-10 nubians or lost a battle thanks to missing intel with NAS. One can not have everything he wants. ~200 more germaniums at HW floor at turn 20 are in the most bottom of my wish list but I still do not deny that IFE is often worth the points.

Another note of me with some quick starting race ... when i see that one of my neighbours is a IT with IFE and similar to me hab i usually feel that i got lucky. Its because it is usually another clumsy and blind HP IT with its expensive propulsion, NRSE, no RS and juicy factories to overtake.

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

Another note of me with some quick starting race ... when i see that one of my neighbours is a IT with IFE and similar to me hab i usually feel that i got lucky. Its because it is usually another clumsy and blind HP IT with its expensive propulsion, NRSE, no RS and juicy factories to overtake.

Ah yes but remember too that you're renowned as quite a skilled and experienced player. No doubt you've put a lot of thought into each race, but you would beat most players in the Stars community whether they had a good race design or not.
One on one against you, I would probably lose every time whether I choose IFE or not and in whatever race I select, but in such a packed and varied universe as "Keep it simple" who knows what might happen.

[Updated on: Sat, 28 August 2004 10:17]

Report message to a moderator

Quote:

"Dirt cheap" is a relative term. First you need to research to Prop9 (2-4 levels assuming IT and depending on LRT's) thereby taking away from factory and mine building. It also initially costs 12 germ (assuming non-CE) whereas the FM doesn't. I totally agree that the Prop9 scoop is an excellent engine, but the FM tends to last me a long, long time. Not only is it quite a decent and inexpensive engine, but coupled with 15% less fuel consumption and no extra research required, it's pretty hard to beat.

Well, there are are few other things I am factoring in, and you may not be. I *really* dislike building FM cruiser+ warships. Sure they are light, but speed sucks, and range isn't that great on missile ships. Sure, it makes great chaff ships, but for most games I don't consider that all. Plus, most players do eventually research to con8/prop9, if they are going to remain competitive. Getting there first does have some advantages. I won't even get into the difference taking cheap prop can make...That's another entire thread.

Then there is the range factor. You will still need a SFX or 2 to get the range on your LG freighters that a prop9 lg freight has...That adds resources and metal to your side of the equation. Trust me, I don't believe for a minute that getting Con8/prop9 is a reasonable goal for every situation. What I am saying is that I have used it in Quickstart designs and -f designs, and it has worked. We were talking about non-IFE vs IFE, right? I'm just offering an alternative to IFE. I never said it was easy.

Quote:

It's a fairly close call, but choosing "IFE/Prop expensive" gives you a few more points than "non-IFE/Prop cheap". Considering that I would still have to initially research Prop8/9, that the FM costs less and I get 15% less fuel consumption on all engines, I'd still rather choose IFE.

I am just looking at it differently than you. I am analysing what I need accomplish to live without IFE. You are looking at everything you'll give up if you *don't* take IFE.

-Matt

Report message to a moderator