Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » research etc
| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 10:27   |
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 vonKreedon |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 610
Registered: March 2003
Location: Seattle, WA USA | |
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A race with all tech +75% can win, but must play a fundementally diplomatic game. You must plan how you intend to make yourself not look like a target in the early and mid games. You must have things, not tech, to trade and this should heavily influence your choice of PRT. You should not play JoaT, PP or HE, and AR only if you have ARM, because these races do not have PRT specific items that are tradeable. OTOH, IS, SS and SD are good candidates for such a race. IS and SD have both good trade bait items and good ability to lay minefields to help discourage others from looking at you as a primary target. SS has good trade bait and is gaining tech research resources from everyone anyway. Another trick is to become a tech broker; find someone who needs a tech you have, say Energy, trade for something that other races need and then trade that tech to them.
Your factories and mines must be inexpensive and efficient. I would posit that factories should be at least 12/8/13/checked and mines at least 12/4/13, cheaper is better with both.
Another thing that I have done with success is to have very high hab. This seems counter intuitive, but it enabled me to grab a lot of planets very quickly in a very small area of the galaxy and then make nice with all my neighbors before they realized what had happened. I occupied a small section and negotiated borders, NAPs and alliances. I was contained so I did not seem to be a threat, particularly compared to the IT -f and the HG SD. I sat and developed my mines and factories, and traded IS toys until by the end game I was the monster I envisioned myself to be.
Of course, it the -f IT or the HG SD had decided to eat me in the early game they could have.
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 10:54 |
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| Quote: |
QS and NF are as radically different as HG and HP.
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I use "quick start" to mean focused on starting quick, early strength compared to focusing on long term.
So for example a quick start would favour cheaper mines compared to high efficiency but more expensive ones. A quick start would be less likely to take TT, ARM, etc. A quick start is more likely to want immunities.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 10:54] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 11:02 |
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| Quote: |
You should not play JoaT, PP or HE
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take that with a grain of salt. You need to trade something, it does not have to be a PRT specific toy. HE btw does have a few tradable toys at its disposal.
So for example if your JOAT can super monster eccon and wide hab, you may be able to trade research on whatever your friends want but have as expensive. You may also be able to trade minerals, normal ships (using your better eccon to build them), knowledge (derived from penn scans), planets (if you have a wide enough hab to give some extra away), etc.
A PP may be able to trade knowledge derived from special penn scans and a "planet cleaning" service for friends who want a planet factories intact. The problem of course with PP is not enough minerals to make use of PRT well.
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 11:12 |
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| Quote: |
A QS can butcher an NF in close quarters.
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Lol, a JOAT can butcher a IT, an HE can butcher a JOAT, it all depends on the game, who is in command, etc.
There are some people out there who are quite happy with their NF, there is a reason why. A race design needs someone who knows how to use it.
A NF has more % free resources, just like an AR. It is free resources that count more than total. From day one he can be getting ahead on techs and building warships with most of his eccon. He can play mao style well as he doesn't care about losing factories like the QS.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 11:14] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 11:23 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| Orca wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 23:02 |
Certainly the only PRTs I'd take NF into a regular game would be CA and IT. I've seen a NF IS taken into a tiny game and it was simply torn to shreds after giving his neighbors a brief fright - and this was before the rise of quickstarts (in a tiny or a small, NF is probably contraindicated...)
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I've added IS to this list, for medium or bigger. It's a little slower than the CA and IT at the beginning, but defends better and has a much stronger endgame. Plus, your Nubs get the Jammer50 advantage, and cloaking SD minelayers/SS aren't near the pain in the butt that they usually are.
I'm running one in the current "advanced" game I am involved in, and have eliminated one race, and forced 2 others to quit. I am at war with an additional 4 races, and am easily winning. I have more cap ships than all others combined, and finally have a couple decent Orgies to start popping a fully defend planet each turn.
The real trick is the midgame war, where the +25% to weaps really hurts. Luckily, I was able to get to nubs pretty fast, since I was only at war with 2 races during that period...
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 11:52 |
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I agree +25% weapons hurts IS for missiles and other expensive weapons. In its favor in early game, you have minigun, fuel transport and crobby for the early wars, and orgies give you potential to grow faster (grow while in transit to breeder worlds), and faster planetary defences can be nice (enemy forced to bring more bombers and tie down his attack fleet or else you pop up another fort/base on planet under seige).
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 11:57 |
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If the planets are dense enough and quarters are tight enough, a HG HE has some potential to ruin the day of a neighbour in the beginning. One poster described them as an early "Devil Incarnate". Later game will normally suck, though.
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 12:28 |
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| Orca |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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| multilis wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 11:12 |
A NF has more % free resources, just like an AR. It is free resources that count more than total. From day one he can be getting ahead on techs and building warships with most of his eccon. He can play mao style well as he doesn't care about losing factories like the QS.
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Note, all of these are assuming a one on one matchup. Assume neighboring races are staying out of this squabble. Start factoring in diplomacy results and things get entirely too complex to discuss, not least because you have no idea outside of a particular game who you and your enemies will be allied with.
A QS would butcher an AR too. They'll roll over anything except a 1WW, an HG, or another QS (for obvious reasons).
A 1WW they'd simply have to outlast until superior resources and minerals allow them to knock it over - usually possible - 1WW has a *very* short strike window. Ask Summoner sometime about how difficult it is to take down a QS with a 1WW. Even *with* help.
An HG which can muster enough resources early enough to hold a QS back if they're lucky and skilled. It's no walk in the park however, and they're quite likely to be mowed down.
HR might have a chance, but usually not - while they might be able to keep up in resources, they'll be woefully behind on tech - and facing down battleships with lower tech cruisers (if not destroyers!) is *not* survivable for very long.
HP is dead on arrival. Even an SD won't be able to hold back a QS - simply not enough resources to make it.
NF has problems similar to the HP. While they'll typically have better tech, it takes time to get established. A QS has 3.5-5K (more typically 3.5-4K) resources by 20. An NF, half that - being constrained by hab and growth rate without compounding factories. You forget that *any* factory-based race can shut down factory/mine building for a period to grab tech or build ships. It's called going to a wartime economy - and while their economy isn't expanding very fast while they do this, that means *all* their resources are going towards warbuilding or tech.
It's for these reasons that the various econ types have suggested minimum and maximum universe sizes (and densities). HG is reasonable anywhere outside of a tiny. 1WW is good in a tiny with 4+ players, and can play a fun spoiler race in a small. QS is excellent in a tiny with 3-6 players, in a small, and is marginal in a medium due to low hab (you need to be able to kill at least one neighbor to get the space you require). HP is suicide in a tiny, very very iffy in a small, and starts to shine in a medium+. NF is suicide in a tiny, iffy in a small, shines in a medium, and gets to be unmanagable in a large+ (arguably in a medium - but hey, some people LIKE to spend 6 hours a day on MM). HR really needs a medium+ to get the space they need to get that massive economy online.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 13:53 |
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If you think one on one a QS always has the edge... explain the comments from mlaub. It doesn't sound like his NF is winning through mainly diplomacy, or because the others are all beginners.
[correction, I read your post again, understand better]
Not all NF are the same, just as not all QS are the same. You are counting HW growth, the extra 10%+ you can get and expecting war to come when HW has factories ready. NF can have war earlier and continue war later, screwing up your colonies while he chugs at most a respectable nearly 20% growth which mostly goes into warship and techs rather than only leftovers.
I'll bet if you ask around on the dueling section of Autohost... you won't just find QS and a few OWW, you'll also find some rapid start NF.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 13:59] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 14:40 |
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| mlaub |
| Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| multilis wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 12:53 |
If you think one on one a QS always has the edge... explain the comments from mlaub. It doesn't sound like his NF is winning through mainly diplomacy, or because the others are all beginners.
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No, he is dead on in his assessments. I wouldn't use my -f IS in anything smaller than a medium, probably not even that. After testing, I knew that it was viable simply because of the universe size, and distance from starting HW's. It is difficult to mount an effective attack early on, especially with a race designed "exclusively" for surviving to the endgame.
The game I am in is a Huge. While I was *the* tech leader throughout the current game, I would have been hard pressed to defend or attack before Y30-35. Just not enough resources, or metal. A -f IT would have been a lot better, earlier, and a -f CA better yet, they are still no match for a QS, though. You really need to be on the recieving end of one to understand. I personally have never lost to a QS, but that is due mainly to my knowledge of them, my normal race selection or just plain luck. I almost always run HG econ models on all races, except HE's and -f's (ofc).
The shortest, and toughest fight I ever had, was against a QS WM in a medium with 10 players. Imagine having 100+ destroyers show up at your secondary HW with bombers, running a PP, at Y14, IIRC... I was impressed! and more than a bit worried, till my scout hit his HW, and I launched every bit of metal I could lay my hands on at his HW. At Y2419, he was unofficially out of the game (he still had ships), as he had no more colonists. I got lucky.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 14:51 |
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| Crusader |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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| mlaub wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 13:40 |
The shortest, and toughest fight I ever had, was against a QS WM in a medium with 10 players. Imagine having 100+ destroyers show up at your secondary HW with bombers, running a PP, at Y14, IIRC... I was impressed! and more than a bit worried, till my scout hit his HW, and I launched every bit of metal I could lay my hands on at his HW. At Y2419, he was unofficially out of the game (he still had ships), as he had no more colonists. I got lucky.
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 You sure did! Actually, you were not lucky so much as you were blessed on that one. However, the PRT match-up was very fortuitous as well. How far from your mass drivers to his HW? If I may ask, and assuming you can remember.
The Crusader 
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 14:58 |
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In my combat testbeds I have been able to pull some effective looking results out of certain early combat races including both NF and some factory IS. IMO it depends on the setup of the race, whether you are ready to strike before 2430, etc.
Going for early strike power further hurts the later power, but it can be useful to strike when least expected.
[to add]...
I feel a NF can have lots of metal early if that is what you want. Mines can be just as cheap as for others and you can build just as many. You can trade germ away to your other neighbours while you pick on your target.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 15:11] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 15:52 |
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| Orca |
| Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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| multilis wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 11:52 |
I agree +25% weapons hurts IS for missiles and other expensive weapons. In its favor in early game, you have minigun, fuel transport and crobby for the early wars, and orgies give you potential to grow faster (grow while in transit to breeder worlds), and faster planetary defences can be nice (enemy forced to bring more bombers and tie down his attack fleet or else you pop up another fort/base on planet under seige).
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One note - the minigun is *not* suitable for early wars beyond the role of minor skirmishing/interdiction. It's basically an upgunned x-ray laser - range 2 and more expensive, same pathetic 13 damage. Aside from minor skirmishing, it can also be handy if you end up next to an SD for minesweeping (it is bar none the best anti-mine weapon at that tech level). Don't count on it to hold you through an early war however, like you can croby hordes.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Fri, 16 April 2004 16:45 |
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I know minigun is wimpy. It is range 2 and a gattling, sometimes that makes it worth it in the early stages for certain types of war.
For example, lets say you split fleet. If an opponent split fleet chases you and you then send all your fleets to one spot, he gets toasted by the gattlings.
Or lets say your opponent manages to get blackjack tech for his orbital forts...
Also, if your warships are heavy and your opponent switches to faster phasor bazookas later in the war, you can at least fight back a little.
[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 16:50] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: research etc |
Sun, 18 April 2004 22:30 |
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| iztok wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 22:08 |
Hi!
| Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 07:54 |
In my last game I played a HR with 15/8/25 (game settings 15/x/25) and HG 1000 pop efficiency. Started beautifully, but I dumped weap cheap to get the RW points to afford these dream econ settings and still get 1 in 4 habs...doh! 
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No wonder you lost that game to a 6% HE. I can not make a viable (at least IMO) race with those settings. It lacks pop (14% PGR) and minerals (16 operated). Dropping pop eff to 1/2500 would give you 17% PGR, fac's cost 7 and 15/3/21 mines - I'd say quite a playable race. For weap cheap you'd have to set fac's back to 8 and set mines to 13/3/22 - more viable IMO.
BR, Iztok
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Whoops, not 1 in 4 habs, actually 1 in 3 (only 2 clicks off 1 in 2, hits 'virtually all' before you have terra-11 in all areas...) I had 17 mines. The mines were very nearly adequate due to broad habs, I think with better weap tech I could've done a *lot* better.
I didn't want pop 2500 because I wanted the fast ramp up time (all the races were restricted to 15/x/25 facs, so I wanted to try to beat the other race's startup times and try to be an early resource monster, which I succeeded in doing.) I sacrificed % growth rate to get more effective population.
If I played the same race again I would probably reduce starting habs to 1 in 4/5 to increase mines slightly and to buy weap cheap. And I'd definately get rid of 'start at 4'... doh!
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| Re: research etc |
Mon, 19 April 2004 02:53 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Dogthinkers wrote on Mon, 19 April 2004 04:30 |
Whoops, not 1 in 4 habs, actually 1 in 3 (only 2 clicks off 1 in 2, hits 'virtually all' before you have terra-11 in all areas...) I had 17 mines. The mines were very nearly adequate due to broad habs, I think with better weap tech I could've done a *lot* better.
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OUCH! With those settings I managed to get PGR 10%. Way to low IMO, even for a HP - you were producing 20% less pop than HE!
| Quote: |
...If I played the same race again I would probably reduce starting habs to 1 in 4/5 to increase mines slightly and to buy weap cheap. And I'd definately get rid of 'start at 4'... doh!
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That's the problem, but not the main. With those 25 fac's operated you'd need much better MINES. On a 100% planet fac's will eat 10MT germ, so on average you'll have 15/15/5MT metal per planet. A 'built-in' mid-game germ crunch  . The game was really tuned for a HE, that could spend the points for mine eff, despite having pop eff 1/1000.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: research etc |
Mon, 19 April 2004 18:09 |
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I managed to squeeze out a PGR of 14%. This was low, but as long as I didn't try to pop drop it worked ok as my habs gave me plenty of planets to spread my growth through (and my production settings gave me heaps of resources for terraforming.) I'd have liked more than 14%, but I don't think it broke the race (at least until the end-game.)
Mines... yes, I needed more. Surprisingly, I did fine for germ (extreme high resource game lead to a predominately beamer equipped fleets for most of the game.)
Not a perfect race by a long way, but I think it fared pretty well as a first attempt / first multiplay race.
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