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Because (a) their small planets are easy prey for an agressive popdropper early on, or any other time, and (b) they're at a huge strategic disadvantage because of lack of stargates. I say, give 'em back the gates and they'll be fine

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Hi!

Dogthinkers wrote on Wed, 14 April 2004 07:55

I'm not conviced they actually need any help... 6% growth HE races can be pretty awesome... IMHO the main reason people don't play them much any more is because they tend to get jumped on in the same way CA races do...

IMO they are jumped on because their current fame is they are _weak_ . Well, it depends of the game settings. The bigger the uni, the harder to play them against races with gates.

I agree a 6% HE starts fast, but sacrifices a lot of capacity for that. A 5% HE can have 50% better mines, 20% faster factories and 24% better max econ, for 20% less grown pop per turn.
BR, Iztok

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For comparison with other races... Don't forget the fact that they own at least twice as many worlds as other PRTS and that all those worlds are 100% for them.

In under a minute I can design a 6% HE with weapons cheap and 2282 resources and 1100 (15eff) mines on every world. Assuming they only have twice the habitability of their neighbours that gives them an equivalent of 4564 resources and 2200 high-eff mines against each opposing world. That's not too shaby. Don't forget to add their special hulls and parts into your evaluation of them.

If you're willing to drop the growth to 5% (I wouldn't) then you can take 1/1000 pop efficiency which gets those resource values to 2612 (5224 equivalent) with a terrifyingly fast ramp up time: 1/1000 pop eff, plus very high mineral supplies, plus 6 cost ger cheap factories = OUCH. I find 5% growth is way too limiting though. I've tried it in testbeds and the pop-growth becomes a bottleneck far too early for my liking.

I think any beneficial change to HE risks putting them out of balance with the other races. Maybe we should give them *only* 100kt/250ly gates and watch them use hordes of tiny ships against nubs in late game

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Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 15 April 2004 20:09

For comparison with other races... Don't forget the fact that they own at least twice as many worlds as other PRTS and that all those worlds are 100% for them. In under a minute I can design a 6% HE with weapons cheap and 2282 resources and 1100 (15eff) mines on every world. Assuming they only have twice the habitability of their neighbours that gives them an equivalent of 4564 resources and 2200 high-eff mines against each opposing world. That's not too shaby. Don't forget to add their special hulls and parts into your evaluation of them.

Yeah - but without good mobility you'll need every resource you can finagle to stop a rapid attack. A (properly played) SD will rip you into tiny bleeding shreds.

Quote:

I think any beneficial change to HE risks putting them out of balance with the other races. Maybe we should give them *only* 100kt/250ly gates and watch them use hordes of tiny ships against nubs in late game

It's still much cheaper to overgate nubians through tiny gates than to use smaller ship hulls. That way, taking overgating damage and losses to the Void together, you'll only be at, say, a 3 to 2 disadvantage per cost than a 10 to 1 disadvantage...

[Updated on: Fri, 16 April 2004 02:32]

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Hi!

Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 16 April 2004 05:09

Maybe we should give them *only* 100kt/250ly gates and watch them use hordes of tiny ships against nubs in late game

I agree. WMs have only basic defenses, HEs should have only basic gates. Besides, gating 175kT Nubs 400LY far through 100/250 gates would (according to Stars! calculator) cause 43% damage and 11% of them vanish. Still viable IMO, esp. if you'd merge ships at arrival to a SFX, and the orbital wouldn't be just a fort. In that case almost all damage would be repaired in the same turn. But gating a BB beamer would be expensive: about 30% losses and 90% damage.
BR, Iztok

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[Updated on: Mon, 17 May 2004 23:42]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Tue, 18 May 2004 05:40

Honestly, what would a race that uses mini-coloniser hull want with a nubian or battleship anyway?

Why nubian is big? I think of nubian as relatively average sized ship... about same size with the metamorph ... bit bigger than cruiser and certainly smaller than galleon or battleship. It is very powerful ship, but not very big one.

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