Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » When to build up defense?
| When to build up defense? |
Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28  |
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 Carn |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 284
Registered: May 2003 | |
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I`m just a beginner about to start my second PBEM game, so please forgive me, if my questions are stupid.
Since I have little experience in real games, I do not know, when to expect what sort of attacks.
In race designing this is a problem, since just testbedding a race for resources or BBs in 2450 is useless, if someone attacks with cruisers in 2440, so I think its better in testbedding to additionally reach certain techs at certain times and build certain amount of mine layers at certain times. Testbedding against AI is useless, because AI attacks are great help in getting techs (e.g. cruisers with jammers, super BC, tech 12 engines and ALPHAs coming in packs of 3-10 every turn - no human could be that stupid).
In playing my lack of knowledge is a problem, because weapon tech only aids in giving terraform, while prop gives terraform and faster engine and gates(with con),con gives better hulls and gates, bio gives excellent terraform (only with TT) and elec gives at least better scanning, meaning finding greens faster(with pen scans), having better diplomacy through better information and earlier spotting of attack fleets.
I conclude that with peace loving neighbours, one would research little or no weapons, since other techs aid growing.
My insights are further limited by my inability to perform well with a -f race. Since these are just the likely candidates to make early attacks, I cannot testbed what such attacks would look like.
I already think that it is good to start building mine layers early, maybe about 2425, since mines are never out of date. If one has some scouts out, that might give 1-2 years of time to prepare against surprise attacks, while mine fields will give an additional 2-4 years, so one would have 3-6 years to research needed weap, build forts or fleets and move them to keep the enemy from harming important worlds. Since building and moving takes at least 2 years only 1-4 years can be used on developing missing techs - not enough to get blasters from nothing, one should always develop a little weap, even if neighbours swear eternal friendship.
To get further with my thoughts, it would be nice if someone experienced (especially in making early attacks with -f races) could give advice on the following points (consider ~ 300 LY distance between starting position and dense universe):
1. When to expect first pop drop attacks?
2. When to expect attacks to disrupt transportation (no bombers)? Which designs will be used?
3. When to expect full attacks? Which designs?
4. At what time mine laying should start to discourage aggressive neighbours?
5. How long is warning time with good placement of scouts and mine fields, with average scouting and fields, against a good player (bad scouting and mine fields probably gives 0 year warning)?
6. Are there berserker-WMs out there, who start building phaser DDs on turn 2 and toss a dice to determine the neighbour they attack? Is there something to do about it execept being SD?
7. Does it help to shoot down early scouts to show what weapons you have at least and keep information from neighbours to discourage them?
I expect that some or all of these questions might be stupid, since the answer might be very setting,PRT or LRT dependant, to complicated to post or to understand or a matter of personal style, so feel free only to answer those you like to answer.
Thanks for your help,
Carn
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Wed, 31 March 2004 21:01  |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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It's pretty hard to answer these questions, as they don't have any firm answers, a lot depends on how the game progresses. In general, if you look weak, you're more likely to be attacked.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
1. When to expect first pop drop attacks?
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I've started a pop drop war in 2410. That was an odd case with a obviously vunlerable HE neighbor. If you colonize with small colonies expect pop drops shortly after some one spots these colonies.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
2. When to expect attacks to disrupt transportation (no bombers)? Which designs will be used?
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Shortly after the pop drop wars start, shipping will get targeted. Also if you send unescorted colonization fleets near space that I consider mine, I'll seriously consider attacking. The ships will probably be beamers of some sort, I've used the JOAT armed probe to hit shipping, but tend to favor DDs with 2 or 3 beams, or a bazooka FF.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
3. When to expect full attacks? Which designs?
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Sometimes things build up from pop drop to anti-shipping to full attacks. Some times it's better to surprise them with full attacks. If they're going to bomb your worlds, weapons 11 is usually worth waiting for, although the weapons 8 one can do in a pinch. With weapons 11 they'll probably be close to cruisers as well, and probably jihads
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
4. At what time mine laying should start to discourage aggressive neighbours?
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Before they start attacking. If you colonize with escorted fleets in big amounts (100k pop or more on each world) and build an orbital, you'll have more time.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
5. How long is warning time with good placement of scouts and mine fields, with average scouting and fields, against a good player (bad scouting and mine fields probably gives 0 year warning)?
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Eventually you'll get close enough that you won't get much warning on the border worlds. If you've got a good scout network and good overlapped mine fields, odds are they'll go look elsewhere.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
6. Are there berserker-WMs out there, who start building phaser DDs on turn 2 and toss a dice to determine the neighbour they attack? Is there something to do about it execept being SD?
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Yep. There are counters, orbitals tend to beat ships till fleets get fairly big. SD would certainly give an early attacker a hard time. The big problem however, is if the opponent gives you a challenge, you're actually weakening yourself attacking that soon. Every one else will be growing faster. Again, if you show weakness, you'll get eaten.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
7. Does it help to shoot down early scouts to show what weapons you have at least and keep information from neighbours to discourage them?
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I generally feel that you're better off keeping them guessing about your tech, if you're leading, don't scare them. If you're trailing, don't encourage them to attack. Killing scouts doesn't seem to keep much information from some one who is that interested, yet it tends to annoy people. Especially if you're trying to kill WM scouts, they move fast, and are hard to catch. I don't start scout hunting till I'm at war for some other reason. Note that mine fields shut down scouting better then most other options.
There are people who seem to think that scouts should be killed however. If you're going to build a scout killer, a good design is a DD, 2 jets, and 2 beams. Speed counts for scout killers.
| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 19:28 |
I expect that some or all of these questions might be stupid, since the answer might be very setting,PRT or LRT dependant, to complicated to post or to understand or a matter of personal style, so feel free only to answer those you like to answer.
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Actually, those are some pretty good questions. They do vary a lot based on everything, game parameters, PRT, LRTs, race theme, luck, what each side says and does, etc...
...
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Wed, 31 March 2004 22:24 |
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| Crusader |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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LEit replied to your tough questions with some excellent answers, and I'll certainly not dispute a single one of them. I will expand on them just a tad with this simple little statement. The best way, as LEit does state mind you, to avoid these annoyingly early attacks is to make them too costly in the first place.
Never leave a colony with only 2500 colonists. Follow up immediately (or very shortly after) with a couple of medium freighter or privateer loads of colonists, if not even more. Shipping a few minerals to help get an orbital platform up quicker also provides a bit of extra defense, because now your enemy must send some warships along with the invasion force. You might overlook a freighter or two. But a 6-pack of destroyers tends to make one sit up and notice.
It might not always be a good idea to start shooting up scouts, but by golly no says they should just be allowed to waltz right in a look around. Challenge them. Start up a dialogue. Ask their intentions. Perhaps ask, no, maybe even insist that there are certain areas that are restricted to non-allies. (Hey! It could work.) Of course, you would want a few warships of your own in your own space to help make the saber-rattling look real.
One little trick that works ... SOMEtimes ... is using destroyer hulls for fuel boosters instead of scout hulls. (Another topic if you don't know what boosters are.) I'm not trying to start another arguement over which hull makes the better fuel booster, but if you use the destroyer it makes it a bit harder for most players to know if you are ready for early war or not, except for that pesky WM you were talking about. He'll figure it out pretty darn quick!
Just remember. Perception is often the only reality. If your opponents perceive that you are stronger than you are, your real strength, or lack of it, is immaterial.
The Crusader 
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 00:03 |
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With what LEit and Crusader have already answered there isn't much to add. However, here are a couple extra notes:
| Quote: |
1. When to expect first pop drop attacks?
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Basically, pop drop attacks can happen anytime after about turn 10. During the early game though, most players won't pop drop on a planet unless it's a green world for them (killing HE colonies being the exception). If your habitability range is left shifted and your neighbor is right shifted, chances are he's not going to drop on a colony of 9 or 10,000. If you don't have medium freighters, it's a good idea to use the small freighter to send an extra 7000 to a planet you plan on building up soon since it's a high green for you.
| Quote: |
2. When to expect attacks to disrupt transportation (no bombers)? Which designs will be used?
3. When to expect full attacks? Which designs?
4. At what time mine laying should start to discourage aggressive neighbours?
5. How long is warning time with good placement of scouts and mine fields, with average scouting and fields, against a good player (bad scouting and mine fields probably gives 0 year warning)?
6. Are there berserker-WMs out there, who start building phaser DDs on turn 2 and toss a dice to determine the neighbour they attack? Is there something to do about it execept being SD?
7. Does it help to shoot down early scouts to show what weapons you have at least and keep information from neighbours to discourage them?
|
For these other questions LEit has done a great job of answering them. I would add that you should start building a few mine layers as soon as you get to bio 4. Send them out and have them start laying some mines. Not only are mines good early defense but they act as an early warning system where you don't have scan coverage. You typically will get 2 years to get a defensive orbital built and get some defending ships to your planet if that attacker ran into the mines or started sweeping them. He also may pull back.
In a beginner game you may find a berserker WM - most advanced games not likely. A WM that spends his early time building enough low tech ships to do much damage has pretty much killed himself since he hasn't spent enough resources on growth.
Shooting down early scouts is not always a wise course of action - you make enemies fast. Diplomacy is much better in the early game than agressive behaviour.
Ptolemy
BTW, none of those questions were stupid. We here at The academy are happy to help so ask anything you want to know. I recommend that you read the thread on diplomacy.
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 00:19 |
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| Kang |
 | Senior Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 87
Registered: April 2003 | |
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| Carn wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 17:28 |
1. When to expect first pop drop attacks?
2. When to expect attacks to disrupt transportation (no bombers)? Which designs will be used?
3. When to expect full attacks? Which designs?
4. At what time mine laying should start to discourage aggressive neighbours?
5. How long is warning time with good placement of scouts and mine fields, with average scouting and fields, against a good player (bad scouting and mine fields probably gives 0 year warning)?
6. Are there berserker-WMs out there, who start building phaser DDs on turn 2 and toss a dice to determine the neighbour they attack? Is there something to do about it execept being SD?
7. Does it help to shoot down early scouts to show what weapons you have at least and keep information from neighbours to discourage them?
|
1) As LEit pointed out, if your colony can be taken out with a single privateer of colonists (If you colonized with a colony ship and didn't send any additional ships full of people..) you can expect a neighbor to consider that colony fair game. The when depends on how fast he finds your vulnerable colony.
I usually shot for privateer hulls before I do any serious colonizing, depending of course on game parameters, and then use a privateer for a colony ship.
2) attacks to disrupt shipping are dependant on how badly your shipping is disrupting your opponents colonizing efforts. If you are planting colonies and supplying them with colonists on the only planets that are suitable for your neighbor, he will attack more viciously than if he has other options. This is very situation specific.
3) Full attacks are usually not worthwhile until FF hulls are available. DD's just are not cost effective for a decent attack, and by the time you build up a decent attack fleet with them they are outdated. You get more shielding on your FF's and they stack well. As a rule, you can expect FF's en-mass when En6, con6, and w8 tech is available.
4) Minelaying works as soon as you have the technology, but unless you are SD you probably won't have any large amount of minelayers until the mid-late 20's. Generally requires Bio4, con6.
5&6- better scouting/scout ships at nearby planets will increase detection time, but you cannot afford to wait for detection of his ships to research weapons tech, you need that before you have a battle on your hands.
7) Aggressive scout hunting is a viable tactic which can sometimes get a neighbor to look more seriously in a different direction. It is a tactic that can work in certain cases, but can also piss people off. I use this tactic If I play a JOAT and can build a scout killer from turn 1, but don't usually try this tactic otherwise.
Kang
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 02:13 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Dogthinkers wrote on Thu, 01 April 2004 07:49 |
Don't forget to build defenses too. In the last game I played my HW (all 1,000,000 pop...) was taken out by a warp 13 mass packet at around 2460. 
If your opponent starts putting up mass drivers, or if you just know they have have energy tech, then you MUST build at least basic defenses or have plenty of freighters and colony ships standing by to lift population. 
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In an all-1WW game I've been in my main (and of some other players too  ) weapon for planet-killing were mineral packets. I achieved the first of all kills in that game with 2.3Mt packet from a dual W7 driver at about turn 33 (non AccBBS start!). If he'd put up at least modest defenses I'd need two or three times the minerals, and that amount I just didn't had at that time, despite my race had a lot and very good mines. Just for the record: I almost sh.. in my pants when seeing a mass driver on the starbase of my 130LY far neighbour at about turn 28. I've dropped all pop from freighters in orbit to the HW and sent them to the would-be point of the expected packet, and put in queue all defenses the planet could build, with the rest of queue a colonizer and freighters, to lift the pop if interception would fail. Fortunately the packet never arrived, in three turns I had my own in orbit and in five my first victim was without pop on his HW.
BTW my default queue is usually 1020 fac's / 1020 mines / 10 max terra / 10 defenses, so every planet gets it's protection at some time. In contested areas where I don't want to lose a planet easily I manually add more defenses, holding to the rule "When in doubt, build defenses." Just for the record: I'm in doubt pretty often. 
BR, Iztok
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| Re: When to build up defense? |
Thu, 01 April 2004 10:10 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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Defenses also seriously slow down your oppenents bombers. It takes 40 cherry bombs one turn to kill any world with no defenses. It takes many times that to kill a world with defenses, often requires killing the defenses first (which means all the factories and mines as well, lowering the value of the planet for the attacker).
About midgame or maybe a bit later, I will set my queues to be 100 auto defenses first, then factories and mines, and in danger zones, will put mines before factories (mines act as chaff for the defenses somewhat). With auto defenses in your queue you can rebuild them the same turn you take a packet hit (packets that don't hit the same turn they're launched hit before production).
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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