Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Early Diplomacy
| Early Diplomacy |
Sat, 27 March 2004 21:42  |
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 Strat |
 | Petty Officer 1st Class |
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004 | |
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As a race who's survival depends almost %100 on good diplomatic skills and agreements:
Should I initiate contact?
How should I initiate contact?
With whom should I initiat contact?
With what goals in mind should I initiate contact? (trade/alliance/boaders)
Anything else I need to know?
Thanks,
Strat
[Updated on: Sat, 27 March 2004 21:43] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Sat, 27 March 2004 23:03  |
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| Crusader |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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| Strat wrote on Sat, 27 March 2004 20:42 |
As a race who's survival depends almost %100 on good diplomatic skills and agreements:
Should I initiate contact?
How should I initiate contact?
With whom should I initiat contact?
With what goals in mind should I initiate contact? (trade/alliance/boaders)
Anything else I need to know?
Thanks,
Strat
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Oh boy! Nothing like a challenge late on a Saturday night. 
Somebody must have told you this is my favorite aspect of Stars! multi-player games. 
I'll refrain from asking those questions that you are not wanting to answer (i.e.-give away to your opponents) 
Should you initiate contact? Well, that all depends (I know - no help there). You need to keep all things in perspective. There is no *magic bullet* answer here. If you see a hyper-active HE swarming your borders early in the game, you better initiate something as quickly as possible. Either bluff him by rattling a non-existant saber or sweet-talk him with promises of riches and knowledge beyond his wildest dreams. Or, if all that fails, you kiss his pinky-ring and beg for mercy.
Your main goal being survival at that point.
Or perhaps you get a tentative buzz from the race right ... there, hmmm, hard to see isn't he. Perhaps you can think up a trade for some of his little goodies that'll help you sneak around the universe. Promise him minerals, assuming he doesn't start stealing them, or maybe you can work up an intersettling scheme to your mutual benefit. Or, that other race over there is using those, what'cha call 'em, fuel transports ... yeah, those guys could be handy allies against those hard-to-see guys should they turn nasty. Perhaps a tech-trade agreement would come in handy. Offer to give tech away on the promise you get first dibs on the tachyon detectors when they get 'em.
But don't initiate contact with the intergalactic broadcast message. No. Indicates that you are either a newbie (i.e.-easy pickings), or a very weak HP or AR (which, of course, you are not). Better to keep your silence until you actually see their scouts, then address them cordially but firmly.
"Greetings, fair wanderers of the Purple Sage, and welcome to the sovereign territory of the Immortal Slimey Snots (even if you don't own a world within 100 light years of his scout). Please feel free to drop in on any of our many lovely worlds, but only to visit, please, as we do not have enough space for our breeding farms as it is." You see, I'm sure. Whatever you do, don't let them see you sweat.
Practice your abilities to discern other player's PRT's and LRT's as this will give you ideas on just what you have to offer your neighbors in the area of trade and what tack you should take with diplomacy. Do this while doing you best to disguise your own PRT and LRT's as this will give you an intelligence advantage. Never underestimate the value of intelligence. You should always strive to have more of it than your opponents, and I'm not talking smarts here, before someone gets cute with the comeback. I'm talking the kind of intelligence that the military likes to get a lot of. You should have more scouts out and spying than anyone else in the game, seeing who everyone is and what they are up to. Look for those tech trade worlds that the other players will establish and see who it is that is sharing tech early in the game.
What? No one is sharing tech? That's good to know, now isn't it. You can start playing people's fears of each other and perhaps get them to leave you alone. Help their paranoia along while being their best friend. That's a really good thing to strive for. Player X is pop-dropping tech trades with Player Y, and Player Y is being nasty to you while Player X is asking for border concessions. Uh-oh! There is trouble brewing there for you. Those 2 have a little non-aggression pact at the least and are looking to move your way. You better get an ally quick!
On the other hand, don't be too friendly either. There is usually one or two xenophobes in a game wh
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Sat, 27 March 2004 23:04 |
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| EDog |
 | Lt. Junior Grade |
Messages: 417
Registered: November 2002
Location: Denver, Colorado, USA | |
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| Strat wrote on Sat, 27 March 2004 19:42 |
As a race who's survival depends almost %100 on good diplomatic skills and agreements:
Should I initiate contact?
How should I initiate contact?
With whom should I initiat contact?
With what goals in mind should I initiate contact? (trade/alliance/boaders)
Anything else I need to know?
Thanks,
Strat
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Unfortunately, if your race depends 100% on good diplomatic skills and agreements, you can look forward to a short game on your part. Every race has (or should have) certain aspects that they excel at in the game, regardless of the diplomatic skill of the player.
That being said, I'm going to assume you mean that you are a race with slow development (possibly HP?). If you need friends to survive in the early game (notice I said in the early game - if you need friends to survive all the way through, your survival prospects are not good), you need to approach other races with care. Change your battle orders so you don't accidentally annihilate a scout. If you truly need allies, borders will not help you; you need an ally (or 2 or 3...) that you can intersettle with. This will allow for mutual defense, better stargate networks, better coordination of fleets, and facilitate trading. You're probably not JoaT, so it's a good bet you have some race-specific things to trade, or at least some good tech in at least one area.
To answer your questions:
Should you initiate contact? Yes, absolutely. Let people know you want to be their friends. Some will take you up on it. Some will not. In early and mid-game, allies are extremely helpful, and few races will not befriend at least one other race.
How should you initiate contact? With an in-game message stating you would like to open negotiations for scouting privileges, possible intersettlement agreements, and to open trade discussions. Always give yourself (and your potential ally) an out by offering a 5-year or 10-year (or whatever) Notification Clause that requires you to give them warning if you will change their status away from friend. This is to try and prevent surprises, although some players will backstab (it's part of the game, so try not to take it personally - it will happen to you sometime, and you may do it your self sometime; just try to not let it be a habit because it will hurt your reputation on the Forum!).
With whom should you initiate contact? Initially, with everyone you meet. If you find yourself in a position that you have treaties with several races, you may be able to broker peace and become the glue that holds a group of allies together.
With what goals in mind should you initiate contact? Simple - the goal is for you to win the game. Consider the victory conditions and what you need to achieve them. If you need secure borders to grow your empire over time, negotiate for those borders (and be prepared to defend them). If you need strong allies to protect you while you grow, negotiate for mutual defense and intersettlement. If you need to devote your resources entirely to your growth and can't spare any for lots of research, negotiate for tech trading. If you need all three, congratulations - you've managed to somehow leave several hundred race points unspent and have given yourself quite an uphill battle.
Hope this helps, and good luck with your treaties!
EDog
http://ianthealy.com
Born, grew up, became an adventurer
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Sun, 28 March 2004 02:53 |
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In all games (with the exception of games that ban diplomacy), diplomacy is essential.
What has already been so well said by both Crusader and Edog applies, as well as the following;
The most important races to work on diplomatically are ALWAYS your neighbors. As soon as you see them, say hello. Invite their scout crews to parties at your planets offering grog and intergalactic baubles of interest. Be freindly with them and get early freindly status set with at LEAST one of them - preferably all of them.
The easiest way to do this is with a simple greeting something akin to;
"Greetings to the Blue Blobs.
We scan your Scout#12 approaching WizzFizz. Please be advised that this area is part of our empire. We welcome your peaceful vessels and will guarantee your safe passage through our realm.
Kind regards,
King Zoom"
This type of opening greeting is simple, cordial, and defines immediately a loose claim on an area of the galaxy with a potential border.
Your initial message is critical since with it you want to be seen to be reasonably strong, a potential ally, a potential trading partner and NOT an immediate threat.
So, for the first answer, the rule of thumb is:
| Quote: |
Should I initiate contact?
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A) Always initiate contact if you scan a vessel approaching or in the area you consider to be your part of the galaxy. Be realistic here - don't claim that 25% of the galaxy is yours or you will be seen to be somebody that is an immediate threat.
B) Generally, wait one turn before initiating contact when you have found a race by having visited a neighbor planet. You want to give the choice of initiating contact to the neighbor race - mostly just to see if he does. Neighbors that initiate freindly contact will usually be reasonably easy to work with for the first 50 years or so. If you begin to see numerous small colonies very close to you and the neighbor has not initiated contact - you better do so immediately to get diplomacy started for the main purpose of trying to get a border agreement and non-agression treaty with an escape clause as the others have mentioned. Any race with numerous small colonies very close to you may be dangerous since it will generally be a wide hab race and very expansionist.
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With whom should I initiate contact?
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This is generally anybody who's scouts you scan that you have not had contact with yet. Even if they are at war with the neighbor race that you have set to freindly status. The type of contact you initiate will depend on the circumstances.
For example, you may send an initial contact message as a warning since your freindly neighbor has cautioned you about this race - something like;
"Greetings UglySlime,
We scan your Scout#42 near Whatsit. Be advised that this area is deep within our territory and you are approaching restricted space. To avoid any potential conficts, we recommend that this vessel change course towards the GreenGate area.
Regards,
Minister of Transport"
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With what goals in mind should I initiate contact?(trade/alliance/boaders)
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Your main priorities for initiating contact vary depending on what stage the game is in. Early game your initial contact is most likely to be with neighbor races (excluding the odd scout that came from the other side of the galaxy through a wormhole). You really want freindly relations with your immediate neighbors that may lead to trade. Trade is the one item that can keep you safe from your neighbor deciding to wipe your race out of existence. As long as you have something the neighbor wants, he won't want to obliterate you. If you realize that you can not win alone, you will want to put the offer of alliance on the table sometime after you have agreed on borders and have established mutual trade. By being the glue that keeps an alliance together you win as part of the alliance - even if you are the weakest member of the alliance, the value of your contribution to the victory is considerable.
There are 3 main types of initial contact;
1) Freindly
2) Neutral
3) Aggressive
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[Updated on: Sun, 28 March 2004 02:58]
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Sun, 28 March 2004 19:58 |
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This set of articles are alluded to in an earlier response. Well worth the reading.
http://www.starsfaq.com/articles/sru/art_diplomacy.htm
The URL is for the "diplomacy" section of the old Stars-R-Us articles that are now at the StarsFAQ site.
The Scott Phelps diplomacy series is I think the first place that heavily advocated adding a "bail-out" clause to all agreements. Most players probably run into the concept elsewhere, but I think these articles are the root location.
These articles also describe a lot of situations that I have seen in Stars! games. "I'll kill you last" accurately describes how a lot of games end with 1-3 races dominating. At that point those races decide their final pecking order without fighting further.
- Kurt
Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho MarxReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Tue, 30 March 2004 12:58 |
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| Crusader |
| Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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So, Strat, did we manage to answer your question in an understandable manner? Or did we just manage to engulf you in the fog of war so completely that you are now lost and angry with us all? Or, perhaps, we answered in such an elementary manner that you would just as soon we shut up. 
It's ok. We can take the truth. 
Someone, I believe, recommended you read the articles on the Stars!FAQ web site, and that is excellent reading. (Ah, it was Kurt. Should of known without looking.) You really should also go to the NG on Google and do some searches for strategy articles. If you have time, do a search on the group for "sincerely Jason Cawley" and just look at all his postings until you come across something that looks helpful.
One series that I thoroughly enjoy reading is Jason's "Operational Stars by Example" which you should be able to locate on the Google.
Might be helpful to look for articles on AR also.
Go to http://www.kimsoft.com/polwar.htm and read through Sun Tzu's ON THE ART OF WAR. It is fascinating reading, at least I thought so, and while all of it may not directly apply, it will nevertheless give you some good insight.
If you can manage to muddle through and understand it, Niccolo Machiavelli's "The Prince" is really good reading to help understand what most governments do, but none profess to doing. This applies to Stars! in a realpolitik sort of way. I found this to be very helpful. http://www.constitution.org/mac/prince00.htm
Books supposedly on the "must read" list but I have yet to read include Carl von Clausewitz's "On War" and A. T. Mahan's "The Influence of Sea Power Upon History, 1660-1783". If you are looking for a more modern version of war strategy, you could look for Basil Henry Liddell Hart's "Strategy", as he has been referred to as the Twentieth Century Clausewitz. However I am of the mind that the books written about and during the Imperialism period of history will prove more useful in a Stars! setting.
How's that for being opinionated about books I have not even read yet. 
Oh, I found an older (archaic?), on-line version of Clausewitz's "On War" at http://www.clausewitz.com/CWZHOME/On_War/ONWARTOC.html
I keep hoping that these books will show up in my local library, but so far no luck. I'll probably be forced to buy them all some day. Luckily, they are not all that expensive as books go.
Your humble servant,
The Crusader 
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Tue, 30 March 2004 17:48 |
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| Strat |
| Petty Officer 1st Class |
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004 | |
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This is all great information!
Becuase of this, I now have a direction to my diplomatic (strat)igy.
Hopefully I'll be able to make some allies, as team play is my forte(did I spell that right?).
One of the biggest things I see is that you must be careful what you say, how you say it, when you chose to say it, and what idea you convey that it doesn't backfire.
I had no idea that it was so involved the art of adding to your words. One wrote a communictation about his peaceful people and thier singing capabilities! People don't sing in Stars!, they mine and make resources. I saw another communication about a scout who died and how his family was upset.  I guess you have to add story to it. I would've been more to the point, no frills kind of diplomacy. Although, I guess it is important to understand the feeling of those you are speaking to, and how you affect those feelings, and what affect those feelings have on him most importantly.
Also I will need to figure out as time goes on:
How to generate trust without making self tooo vulnerable.
How to know what to offer in trade for things.
What are wise boarders to negotiate for?
How to protect boarders.
How to see what is happeneing between otheres in game as well as me; things not spoken by word.
Theses are only a few things I see that I will be learning.
Thanks for all the great help all. Hopefull I'll be able to apply it effeciently.
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Wed, 31 March 2004 00:43 |
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| Strat wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 01:48 |
How to generate trust without making self too vulnerable.
How to know what to offer in trade for things.
What are wise borders to negotiate for?
How to protect borders.
How to see what is happening between otheres in game as well as me; things not spoken by word.
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I'll give you a little insight to these other items:
You generate trust by keeping to your side of agreements, getting your trade ships where they are supposed to be on time and, most important, by regular communication.
Trade - This varies from game to game. My suggestion is to ask your trade partner to make an offer. Generally, I like to get equal resources woth of trade. If I 'sell' ships, I want the amount of minerals it cost me to produce them + extra minerals to compensate for the resources I spent building the ships. The amount I would require varies on the stage of the game. Alternately, I'll sell ships for other ships that I can build myself. i.e. I'll sell the asked for specialty ships for destroyers of a certain design. This saves me rom having to build them myself.
Wise borders are abstract lines that go from planet to planet and the planets used are generally your farthest outposts. I usually will agree to a border that has my farthest planets and some of my neighbors planets along the same line. (i.e. if you are in the NW corner, the border may be 'in the south, from Cochise east to Red Onion). Since you are only discussing the border with your southern neighbor, there is no need to define to him your eastern border.
Border protection depends on the relationship you have with your neighbor - if the relationship is flimsy and you don't have much trust in your neighbor, you will want to get defense fleets to your planets and lay numerous minefields in the area that overlap. If your relationship is very solid, you won't have to worry much about that border since you will most likely be sending you fleets past it to help protect your neighbor's border.
To see what others are doing, keep a few scouts roving around the galaxy - especially once you get penn scan scouts. Pay attention to what types of ships you see and where. If you see a fleet of 20 odd scouts belonging to The WishyWashy going to a planet belonging to The Handkerchiefs, it's a good bet they are trading tech. Especially if you see that, at The Handkerchief planet, those scouts now belong to him 2 turns later.
Keep all your turn files - this way you can always open up an older turn to see what was there.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Wed, 31 March 2004 04:06]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Wed, 31 March 2004 01:56 |
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| iztok |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Strat wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 00:48 |
Also I will need to figure out as time goes on:
How to generate trust without making self tooo vulnerable.
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Easy. Don't _BE_ vulnerable, but don't appear to aggressive too. Be polite, seek and respect agreements, arrange some tech trade, give small gifts (usually info).
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How to know what to offer in trade for things.
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Tech for tech, ship for ship, planet for planet. Avoid giving planets for anything else but other good greens. Sometimes I can trade tech for pen-scanner ships. When designing your race have in mind what you'll trade. Don't rely on remote miners. IMO you have to produce/give way to many to make some real impact.
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What are wise borders to negotiate for?
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A tricky one question. Both sides should feel they got a fair share. I usually don't define borders, but state "interest zones", and try to negotiate for planets in border zones.
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How to protect borders.
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Small minefields on your side (avoid big ones that stretch into his space), small patrolling ships with scanners, gates everywhere. A modest number of skirmishers (not heavy attack ships) patrolling rear area.
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How to see what is happeneing between otheres in game as well as me; things not spoken by word.
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Scouts everywhere, chit-chat with other players/neighbours, public messages, score table, clouds of salvage in space... Gathering intelligence is a game of its own.
My  .
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Wed, 31 March 2004 11:26 |
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| Inquisitor80 wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 11:20 |
On a more serious note.
On Scouting...
Should my scouts be: Non-cloaked, somewhat cloaked, or Max cloaked (for my tech level)
I have played in a multi human email game and all the scouting was done cloaked. yet the diplomacy was some of the dirtiest i have ever seen (even in real life)
- Inquisitor80
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Early on probably want many and cheap. (Scout hull)
Next step is usually Frigates... more complicated here.
Options:
1) cheap - 1 or 2 scanners at most, and an engine
2) cloaked
3) Max per hull
4) Skip using FF entirely for scouting
Then you'll probably see Galleons. Expensive, but can be cloaked to 97%.
Finally, you could see Nubian scouts depending on equipment and needs. Some people like piling on lots and lots of scanners. I prefer having fewer scanners and cloaking mine.
Certain PRTs have alternatives:
SD: MML can carry a scanner
SS: Rogue hull can be a scanner ship
JOAT: Scanner? We don' need no stink'n scanner!
- Kurt
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| Re: Early Diplomacy |
Wed, 31 March 2004 14:07 |
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I'm sorry that Borg couldn't be allowed into Void War - I already had 12 players for a game I planned on having a maximum of 10 in. Since I know from experience that 2 will drop or be killed fast I allowed the game to go to 12. I would have loved to have you in the game though.
However, I'm going to provide another game that I don't play in but only host. I had so many players looking to join Void War that I'm now defining the rules for a new game that any PRT can play and certain PRT's will have restrictions. Since I won't be playing the game I will moniter it to make sure the rules are followed. I will NOT even be playing an observer race. By checking turn files I can validate player compliance with the rules.
Ptolemy
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when I see the answer...
, but then we might have to assimulate you. 
