Home » Stars! Clones, Extensions, Modding » FreeStars » The Galaxy (long)
| The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 05:04  |
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As I look at all we are doing, I would like to suggest a galaxy modification that adds a little more reality than we currently have in Stars!. This doesn't change any major functionality for turn processing but modifies the way that we represent planets and define our waypoints.
With the current code, we use a simple x,y definition for planets. What I would like to do is use x,y,z where x,y defines the star and z defines the planet in that solar system. When waypoints are selected, the star system and planet are selected. Effectively, this means that we have no galaxy clumping since a given star will contain from 1 to x planets (I recommend a maximum of 5).
Here's what we have now:
class Galaxy {
public:
bool ParseNode(const TiXmlNode * node);
void WriteNode(TiXmlNode * node) const;
Planet * GetPlanet(int posX, int posY);
Planet * GetPlanet(const Location * loc) { return GetPlanet(loc->GetPosX(), loc->GetPosX()); }
Planet * GetPlanet(const char * name);
And here is what I would like to use:
class Galaxy {
public:
bool ParseNode(const TiXmlNode * node);
void WriteNode(TiXmlNode * node) const;
Planet * GetPlanet(int posX, int posY, int posz);
Planet * GetPlanet(const Location * loc) { return GetPlanet(loc->GetPosX(), loc->GetPosX(),loc->GetPosZ()); }
Planet * GetPlanet(const char * name);
Here, loc becomes x,y,z.
As a graphical example of what we then see for our universe on the screen we have something like this:
[img]http://koti.welho.com/esmith/whsmith/images/galaxy.gif[/img]
Our universe definition then uses a format similar to this:
Galaxy
Star, Name = 'Andromeda', Location(x),(y)
Planets(3) ;=z
'Earth' (grav,temp,rad,iron,bor,germ), Image = random([planetpic]),(color)
'Venus' (grav,temp,rad,iron,bor,germ), Image = random([planetpic]),(color)
'Pluto' (grav,temp,rad,iron,bor,germ), Image = random([planetpic]),(color)
Star, Name = 'Cassiopeia', Location(x),(y)
Planets(2) ;=z
'Gaia' (grav,temp,rad,iron,bor,germ), Image = random([planetpic]),(color)
'Fontaine' (grav,temp,rad,iron,bor,germ), Image = random([planetpic]),(color)
etc. - for the number of stars & planets in the galaxy
When we select a waypoint, we select the star and planet. HOWEVER, fleets travelling more than 1 light year to get to a planet will STOP 1ly from the star then enter the planet orbit the following turn. What we do want to do is create battles in space and at planets.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Fri, 26 March 2004 06:58]
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 06:42  |
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Starbases naturally need to orbit planets though it makes sense if a starbase could orbit a star. I think though that we would have to add that possibility in a later version of the game.
As to leaving a planet - correct - the first year would get you out of orbit and the solar system and into space for 1 light year.
Ptolemy
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 06:44 |
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Now, now,
Don't get nit picky  Get planet functionality is needed I can assure you.
(thanks for noticing though - I've updated the original message)
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Fri, 26 March 2004 06:46]
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 10:13 |
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Actually, the answers are quite simple since each planet is treated just as they ccurrently are so:
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1) Does it take a turn (a year)to travel between planets in the same system?
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Yes
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2) Does it generate fuel?
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yes
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3) Who is orbiting what planet?
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Whoever set the planet as a waypoint or builds a ship at it etc.
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4) Maybe someone orbits the star?
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Not allowed until a potential second version
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5) Can there live multiple races in same system?
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Of course - a planet can be inhabited by anyone.
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6) Do the starbases of all planets in system take part in battle?
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No, only the starbase at a given planet
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7) Can you scan all planets being in system even without penetrating scanners?
etc.
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Scanning happens just as it does now - penetrating scanners will scan all planets in the system, non-penetrating scanners would have to visit each planet in the system
Put in simple terms - this is just a different way of displaying the galaxy so that we have stars and planets are subsets of stars.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Sat, 27 March 2004 12:22]
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 11:10 |
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| Orca |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 1 |
Messages: 148
Registered: June 2003
Location: Orbiting tower at the L5 ... | |
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This is one of those things we've decided, as far as I know, not to do. Multiple planets per system is quite simply too much of a pain in the rear UI-wise. It would be possible however to get a similar effect by changing the maximum planet size and maybe fiddling with the mineral concentrations (abstracting the multiple planets per system).
Or, just create a universe that tends to have clusters of planets very tightly bunched together around a central planet.
Either way, we don't need to make any real code changes to do this.
Jesus saves.
Allah forgives.
Cthulhu thinks you'd make a nice sandwich.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 11:13 |
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| Kotk | 
 | Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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So with 5 planets in a system you will end up having 5 orbits with different fleets on each orbit, 5 planets with orbitals, 5 different waypoints and 5 possible battles. All in one pixel?
Okay ... How you describe intuitive user interface ... ?
Viewing: For example how to make overall galaxy view with fleet/strabase numbers/status, the planet values or population counts. About minerals and concentrations i care less.
Currently its very good, i just press on "1" for normal view, "4" for planet values and "5" for population. I get the impression where i should pay further attention immediately.
Making movement: For example starting scout from hw system to system 2 planet 1, planet 2, planet 3, planet 4, system 3 planet 1, planet 2 etc.
Currently i just say my scout to colonize and holding down the shift key click 5-10 times... very intuitive and quick.
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 13:00 |
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I will use a 2nd display level for the planets at any given star - select the star (double click) and a new child window comes up with the solar system display. From here, you can send a fleet from one planet to another within the system. Right clicking on the star in the main universe display shows the planet list (I'll change the text color to green if the planet is owned by the player selecting it). Selecting fleets at the planet from the main window allows you to set a waypoint out in space or to another star system.
For using the 'next' function to go from planet to planet, the child window stays open and moves to the next solar system display. IF the 'solar system' display window is designed like the other windows, it can be re-positioned within the main display at will so that it doesn't interfere with the universe map. Running in 1024x768 I currently have enough extra space on my screen to easily accomodate this. 800x600 screens will be a little more crowded so the minimum recommended screen resolution will be 1024x768
For setting scout waypoints a couple extra clicks will be involved to scout multiple systems but that shouldn't cause any major inconvenience. I think that the added 'realism' makes up for the extra few clicks.
For the planet display info, a star with 5 planets would have the same type of display we currently have - 5 graphs around the star - one for each planet.
Most of the additional code is at on the client side - I don't see the server having to deal with too much extra since it is simply an extra co-ordinate for a planets' location.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Fri, 26 March 2004 13:03]
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 26 March 2004 20:46 |
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 LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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Multiple worlds per point is one of those ideas that seems like a good idea, but in practice, turns out to be very annoying. There are several questions, some of which mazda raised, that don't have easy answers, and which ever way you decide, some one else will have a different opinion.
Also, as Orca said, you can achieve a similar effect by placing worlds withing a ly or 2 of each other. If the client can zoom to more then 400% (a good idea for placing fleets exactly anyway) then you can get a 'window' of a system by zooming to 10 to 20x.
Besides, the initial effort is big enough, adding to it doesn't seem like a good idea at this point.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sat, 27 March 2004 04:05 |
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My main idea with this was merely as a change to the display rather than treating systems as single entities. By treating planets as they are currently handled in Stars, game functionality remains the same. I had no plan on having ships in space within a system between planets. From any one planet to another would take one year of travel so battles happen in planetary orbits at planets just as they do now. Battles in space happen outside the solar system.
I mainly like this concept since we travel to star systems to get to planets - it's more realistic. Besides, the universe would look nicer. To deal with it in the user interface isn't so difficult and the galaxy x,y co-ordinate map will use more than one pixel per co-ordinate anyway. (I still need to work out a few details in this area). From the perspective of the server not much has changed except that z is used as a 3rd co-ordinate when referencing planets. x and y are used in space and z is null. With the user interface handling all the waypoints, ships aren't allowed to move to the x,y co-ordinate of an actual star unless they are at a planet in that system.
To keep things very much the same as they are now, there isn't any real reason for requiring a fleet to use 1 turn to get 'in system' or leave the system. It would have less impact to overall game strategy if it's just left as it is where travel is concerned.
Currently, we travel to planets all over the place in our galaxies but, there aren't any stars. I just want stars 
Ptolemy  
[Updated on: Sat, 27 March 2004 04:18]
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sat, 27 March 2004 11:38 |
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| Ptolemy wrote on Sat, 27 March 2004 04:05 |
My main idea with this was merely as a change to the display rather than treating systems as single entities. By treating planets as they are currently handled in Stars, game functionality remains the same. I had no plan on having ships in space within a system between planets. From any one planet to another would take one year of travel so battles happen in planetary orbits at planets just as they do now. Battles in space happen outside the solar system.
I mainly like this concept since we travel to star systems to get to planets - it's more realistic. Besides, the universe would look nicer. To deal with it in the user interface isn't so difficult and the galaxy x,y co-ordinate map will use more than one pixel per co-ordinate anyway. (I still need to work out a few details in this area). From the perspective of the server not much has changed except that z is used as a 3rd co-ordinate when referencing planets. x and y are used in space and z is null. With the user interface handling all the waypoints, ships aren't allowed to move to the x,y co-ordinate of an actual star unless they are at a planet in that system.
To keep things very much the same as they are now, there isn't any real reason for requiring a fleet to use 1 turn to get 'in system' or leave the system. It would have less impact to overall game strategy if it's just left as it is where travel is concerned.
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So, if I read this right what you're proposing at this point is simply that each "star" (or system) in current Stars would actually represent a stack of 1 to 5 equivalents of the current game's "planets"?
The previous use of what I would call a "system box" might not have great effect on the display beyond what the multiple planets would entail - but it would have a massive effect on tactical and operational play. (And the current proposal as I understand it would still have some of these same effects.)
[Aside: I called it a "system box" since I translated the concept into a board game equivalent - you went to/from interstellar space to the box representing the system. And any planet could go to/from the system box or any other planet there.]
In any case I hope all are aware that any implementation of a concept like this would be *after* the initial Freestars version. The initial goal is a product parallel to the existing game. After that things can get weirdly interesting...
- Kurt
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sat, 27 March 2004 12:14 |
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| Quote: |
So, if I read this right what you're proposing at this point is simply that each "star" (or system) in current Stars would actually represent a stack of 1 to 5 equivalents of the current game's "planets"?
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This is correct.
Granted it would have an effect on gameplay but, I don't think it would be that much of a change to strategy or tactics. Effectively, tactics would work as if all games were in a galaxy clumped universe (though there is no reason that a non-clumped galaxy couldn't be defined with only one planet per star). We can even say that the max planets per star is 3.
The problem here is that if we don't write it to start with to work like this, changing it for a second generation of Freestars will be quite a large task. Making it at the same time the client is created to start with will be much less time consuming. From the client side, a modification like this would be an entire re-programming of the galaxy representation in the GUI. I'd much rather write it once the way that it will be.
Additionally, changing the display to this degree most likely negates any possibility of copyright infringement.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Sat, 27 March 2004 12:23]
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sat, 27 March 2004 16:55 |
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| Strat |
 | Petty Officer 1st Class |
Messages: 62
Registered: March 2004 | |
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Unless otherwise stated-
This means that the Setting "Galaxy Cumping" woud be understood True.
Will it be possible to simply make the "Galaxy clumping" option cuase the program to generate this MOO style map when True, but when false generate an old(current) style map?
Also, questions:
How can you project what planet a fleet is heading to if they are all in one pixel? This would be inconvinient for a defender becuase he would have to guess 1/5 planets what one is going to be atacked, or spread fleets out accordingly.
Will this cause there to be more planets on map than the current stlye, or same amount only in these star systems? If same amount, you have the issue of egg's all one one basket. And thats dangerouse for the above reason.
While inter-system travel takes 1 year, I don't like that exteranlly from the star system, from any given point, the time it will take to reach any of a potential 5 planets in the star system will be exatcly the same.
Idea for GUI, and less clicks-
Currently to set a waypoint for a ship I:
1) Select ship
2) Press Shift Key
3) Click a destination (planet/fleet/space/minefield/whatever)
But for new Star Systems, you can't simply click a destination planet.
What if(!Star Systems Only!):
1) Select Ship
2) Press Shift Key
3) When Mouse goes over a star System pixel, a small window apears with its center over the star system pixel with a graphical represntaion of the planets inside the star system. Sorta MOO style, with the planets in a Orbit kinda picture. When this window appears from the mouse over, you simply click destination planet in the picture. There you go, old style waypoint for new style star system, you can click your planet. This could still appy for intersystem or intrasystem travel.
It would have to be that this small window only appears when setting waypoints, perhaps when a ship is selected and you are pressing "shift" key.
I have more ideas for Star System clumping, but little time to write them all!
Hope this info is applicable.
Strat
[Updated on: Sat, 27 March 2004 16:57] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Fri, 02 April 2004 13:41 |
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I thought of something like that requiring use of a construction ship with minerals and a starbase crew. Too complicated to implement in a first version of Freestars though.
Ptolemy
Though we often ask how and why, we must also do to get the answers to the questions.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sat, 03 April 2004 13:57 |
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To throw in some more ideas. On the planets in a solar system idea, we are basically talking MOO2 interface rather than MOO1 type switch.
Another stranger idea... rather than view things as stars in a galaxy, you view them as a single solar system where stuff orbits other stuff and it all slowly moves.
Basically Stars game with modificatins of slow movement of planets due to gravity and different sizes of planets (with effects on hab). Maps could vary from what looks like a spiral galaxy slowly moving to a solar system like ours complete with moons. If you start to throw in even more realistic physics, things start getting really wild, humans have more tactics available, AI would have harder time competing. But as it is... computer AI is a joke so that part doesn't matter much.
[Updated on: Sat, 03 April 2004 14:01] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: The Galaxy (long) |
Sun, 04 April 2004 01:18 |
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| craebild |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 568
Registered: December 2003
Location: Copenhagen, Denmark | |
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| multilis wrote on Sat, 03 April 2004 20:57 |
To throw in some more ideas. On the planets in a solar system idea, we are basically talking MOO2 interface rather than MOO1 type switch.
Another stranger idea... rather than view things as stars in a galaxy, you view them as a single solar system where stuff orbits other stuff and it all slowly moves.
Basically Stars game with modificatins of slow movement of planets due to gravity and different sizes of planets (with effects on hab). Maps could vary from what looks like a spiral galaxy slowly moving to a solar system like ours complete with moons. If you start to throw in even more realistic physics, things start getting really wild, humans have more tactics available, AI would have harder time competing. But as it is... computer AI is a joke so that part doesn't matter much.
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Having the planets/stars moving around would not be realistic, at least not if it affects the game in any way.
There are far too many 'planets' in a Stars! game for them to be in a single solar system.
Stellar drift on a galactic level would not be perceptible unless the timescale is something like 1000 years per turn generation - in a long game, it might be perceptible when comparing the start and end situation even if the timescale is 100 years per turn generation. This perceptible stellar drift is not enough the affect tactics, for the stellar drift to be great enough to affect tactics, the timescale would have to be far higher. High enough that the lifespan of a star would have a far greater impact on the game, I think.
Of course, the game does not have to be realistic in that regard. Adding the tactical complication of a large stellar drift could be fun. That is not likely to happen in the first version of the game, though.
Med venlig hilsen / Best regards / Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Christian Ræbild / Christian Raebild
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