Hiy'all.

Gible's post in the puzzle thread got me thinking.

I've been a Windows junky since Win 95 came out - close to a decade now. I used to be a regular UNIX user at my university, but now develop with Microsoft tools on Windows for a living. Without wanting to start any flamewars - for the most part I'm very happy and generally think that Microsoft has produced (generally) excellent products for the last 4 or 5 years.

However, part of me yearns back to the UNIX environment - the REAL use of the command line, the lighter kernel and tools, the raw efficiency, the trend towards open-source. I find each visit to sourceforge.net really exciting and I'm disappointed each time I have to choose the Windows binaries to download. I think it's the idealist techy inside me trying to get out.

I'm not really willing to turn my life upside-down over this, but I've got a few gigs to spare on both my home and work PCs, and would love to install Linux just to play with and experiment with - if there was an easy way to do it on my WindowsXP PC. Every time I look at a distribution it's laden with warnings about co-habiting with 2000/XP, and it seems if you make a mistake you could well lose your existing installation.

Can anyone point me to user-friendly distributions that are going to nicely cohabitate with Windows XP on one hard drive? As I said, I'm keen to do it, but not if it's going to be a massive headache or risk.

Thanks in advance for the advice.
Cheers
Hilton

BTW - My development machine at work is running with XP, MySQL, MSSql2000, PHP, ASP, ASP.NET... Currently running PHP/MySQL apps of UT2003 localstats, AATradewars and others. So I'm not a COMPLETE Microsoft junky.

[Updated on: Wed, 21 January 2004 05:42]

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HiltonL wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 05:36

Currently running PHP/MySQL apps of UT2003 localstats, AATradewars and others. So I'm not a COMPLETE Microsoft junky.

Oh? So you're running a AATradewars server also?

"and others." Do tell...

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Ron wrote on Wed, 21 January 2004 19:02

Oh? So you're running a AATradewars server also?

Yes, it was your message that you'd set one up that got me interested. It looked like an interesting concept, but bandwidth is shocking in South Africa, so I d/led the distribution from www.AATraders.com so I could play with it locally.

I showed a few guys in the office, and they played for a while but lost interest. Myself and one other guy log on daily for a laugh. Perhaps once I've fully learned the rules I'll sign up for your server. But if you witness the response times of pages in South Africa you'll understand why I prefer PBEM like Stars!

(And no, I just chose default values to everything when setting up the universe - so it was quicker!)

Quote:

"and others." Do tell...

Well, primarily UT2003 localstats. I've always been an Unreal fan over Quake because I prefer the built in game modes, and it got a big following in our office because UT1 had good software rendering for the office PCs. I obsessively managed the stats, writing game reports after we had tournament-style sessions, and was shocked when UT2003 had no local stats! (See above, South Africa bandwidth and company firewall meant global stats was never really feasible)

So when I found a MySQL/PHP local stats logger and analyser (virtually identical to the UT1 version), it was quickly deployed onto my UT2003 server!

I'm running PHPMyAdmin, which allows me a bit of MySQL database management, I've been spoilt by Microsoft Enterprise Manager, I need a GUI to chat to the database.

I installed NetOffice for a laugh while my company was investing various collaboration tools, including the very cumbersome Sharepoint Portal 2. Ugh.

The biggest MySQL app I'm running is another stats program for a cool little platform-based motorbike game called "ElastoMania". It reads in a level times file from each player and shows grids, graphs and maps for each level or level pack, so the ultra-competitive people at m

[Updated on: Wed, 21 January 2004 13:12]

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[Updated on: Wed, 21 January 2004 17:33] by Moderator

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I can't say I've had any problems co-habitating linux and XP...but then I've never had linux there for more than a few hours at most...hardware driver problems really suck in linux...especially when you don't know what you're doing. Guess how I discovered I had a winmodem

I've heard that linux runs very nicely with VMWare, and vice versa.

Cygwin of course will allow you to run a lot of linux stuff.

The most useful thing I can think of to suggest is that you get a hold of Symantec Ghost - its a partition/drive copier...very cool..that way you can stuff your system royally and put it back exactly the way it was and start stuffing again
It also copes very well with changing partition sizes. I've used it a couple of times to change my partition sizes by backing up the partitions, deleting them all ,making the new ones I want and then restoring the data.
I haven't used it to clone linux at all but the guide has this to say

Quote:

Symantec Ghost can clone many different Linux distributions successfully. However, Symantec Ghost is sensitive to any possible changes in ext2 file system and LILO specifications. If changes are made to these specifications, Symantec Ghost may no longer support the Linux distribution. Symantec attempts to release new builds of Ghost promptly to address such changes.

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My 2 cents as a person who has been using linux for _almost_ a decade (I hated microsoft windows 95, so I went linux).

If you are worried about losing your windows partition, maybe start using Knoppix or similar. Linux with no installtion or anything. Great for plonking in any machine with a CD drive to get a Linux machine. Also very impressice showing of on other peopels machines

For instaltion: Just be very careful installing it. The main problem is booting microsoft windows again, so make sure you get that right. Ask around, try the Linux doc project for setting up the right boot options with LILO to get microsoft windows booting okay. Done right there is no problem.

As for distribution:
As long as you stick with a major one you should be fine. I would personally say either Debian or Fedora. I use debian and think it rocks. Debian is harder to install, but easier to maintain. Fedora has a nice installtion process, and based on installing both recently on a machine, I preferred it other microsoft windows XP's to tell you the truth

My real advice however would be to find a friend who uses Linux, and use the same distro they do. That way if you have any problems they can help you with less dificulty. Offer to buy them a beer if they'll step you through installation - and ask a lot of questions

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Welcome back to the real world!

The reason all the distros are covered in dire warnings is because they need to legally cover themselves. Since XP is closed source, and probably full of "feature" ridden implementations of standards, no linux company can ever be sure what it's going to unleash on the hard drive.

Two important things I learned the hard way when moving from Windows to Linux:

1. Don't ever (re)install windows after you've got linux up and running on the same HDD. You'll just break your windows partition badly.
2. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but be specific if you want the answers to be useful.

And three things i learned the easy way

1. not to fear the command line
2. to expect good manuals on everything
3. that i don't need windows for anything, i have wine!

As for distros, i learned on mandrake, but ended up preferring slackware, debian or suse. I currently run an LFS system. I'd recommend trying out mandrake, knoppix, fedora or debian first.

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steev wrote on Fri, 23 January 2004 16:29

Welcome back to the real world!

Actually, I think exactly the opposite is the case...

Quote:

1. Don't ever (re)install windows after you've got linux up and running on the same HDD. You'll just break your windows partition badly. 2. Don't be afraid to ask questions, but be specific if you want the answers to be useful.

Thanks, I've taken your advice on both of those. The linux boot menu is great and allows me to still boot Windows for my wife and (sadly), real life work.

Quote:

And three things i learned the easy way 1. not to fear the command line 2. to expect good manuals on everything

Amen to that! The return of the man page is making me very happy...

Quote:

3. that i don't need windows for anything, i have wine!

Notepad.exe is the most advanced program I have managed to get running under wine. I shall press on, but my success ratio is very low so far.

Quote:

As for distros, i learned on mandrake, but ended up preferring slackware, debian or suse. I currently run an LFS system. I'd recommend trying out mandrake, knoppix, fedora or debian first.

Well, I get a Knoppix distribution which was fun for a while, but I've now installed mandrake on a brand new HDD at home.

More in another post...

Cheers
Hilton

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Ron wrote on Mon, 02 February 2004 18:26

I've heard there are Linux drivers out there for Winmodems. Try http://www.linmodems.org/

Thanks - already went there though. My chipset is listed under "no reported success under Linux".

Cheers
Hilton

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[Updated on: Mon, 02 February 2004 21:22]

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Hi Nash.

Thanks for your reply. To save space (and effort since I don't have much time) I'm not going to quote, I'll just answer from memory...

I am finding mitigating circumstances to some of my criticisms. I realized that my "distribution size" argument was a bit of a newbie gripe, I didn't realize that only disk 1 was needed for a basic install. Yes, you're right. WinXP + MSOffice + Visual Studio is 3 CDs - so if you treat disks 2 and 3 as "optional addons" they compare well. Remember that most of those features you mentioned DO ship with Windows. Web server, Internet servers, Remote access tools - but yes, point taken.

Also, I didn't realize that "disk 4" of Mandrake's distro was "MandrakeMove", a CD only version like Knoppix.

I realize that the driver situation is not Linux's FAULT, but it is nevertheless a reality that must be taken into account before using the OS. You can blame Windows for having a monopoly and CAUSING the fault, but sadly it detracts from the experience of using Linux.

Don't misunderstand me - I'm not complaining about bootup time - I'm just saying that WinXP and Mandrake/KDE both boot up in the same, pretty quick, time. I think that my misconception that Linux was lightning fast and Windows was sluggish and deadly slow comes from people coming the Linux CLI with the Windows GUI. Fair enough... A GUI is a GUI and takes roughly the same time to start up.

I've spent a bit more time with OpenOffice and am now investigating StarOffice. And vi.

I'll blame hanging on odd drivers and KDE for now, since it's mostly media that dies. I'll give GNOME a shot and compare, thx.

Also, thanks for clearing up the NVidia misconception - I assumed their driver was opensource, but I guess with industrial espionage with other companies and all that politics, it was probably out of the question.

As I said, I certainly try not to be in camp or another, I can see the relative merits of both Windows and Linux, so my negative list w

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