Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables)
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 24 December 2003 09:03   |
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| alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 13:59 |
You can simply colonize that red and build a mining colony there with a better mining rate and much cheaper than remotes.
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Hmmm. How many mines can I operate on a red planet ? I'll have to knock up a spreadsheet I think.
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 24 December 2003 09:24 |
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OK, I need these figures checking, but...
I can get 10% capacity out of a red world: 5% base, plus 50% of 10% for overcrowding.
So, with 12/3/18 mines (OBRM, non-JOAT), I can operate 216, producing 260 minerals per turn at 100%.
With my OBRM remote miners (cost with minaturisation is 97 res, 33/13/10 mins) I would need a fleet of 33 to get those 260 minerals.
The 33 would take 3201 resources to build (I can do that at a decent planet in 1 year), plus 1089/429/330 minerals. I get the Iro back in 4 years, the others back in even less.
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 24 December 2003 09:37 |
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| alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 13:59 |
You can simply colonize that red and build a mining colony there with a better mining rate and much cheaper than remotes.
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From your mineral extraction tables, it would take 350 years for 100 mines to strip a 100% mineral world down to 25 years.
With the 216 mines I can operate with my 12/3/18 race on a red world (figures still to be confirmed) that is still over 150 years.
I can strip it much quicker with my crappy OBRM remote miners.
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 24 December 2003 09:39 |
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| Micha wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 14:36 |
[On a red you can build as many factories/mines as if it was a 15% planet IIRC. You can overcrowd upto 300% but those extra cols won't be able to operate any installations, the only add pop resources,
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My understanding is...
You can overcrowd to 300%, but 200% of that works at 50% efficiency. 5% at 100% plus 10% at 50% = 10% overall.
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Wed, 24 December 2003 10:33 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| Micha wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 15:48 |
| staz69uk wrote on Wed, 24 December 2003 15:39 |
My understanding is...
You can overcrowd to 300%, but 200% of that works at 50% efficiency. 5% at 100% plus 10% at 50% = 10% overall.
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The first 100% works at full force, the next 200% work at 50% so those 200% extra produces as much pop resources as the first 100%. IOW overcrowding to 300% doubles your resources coming from pop. Additional the first 100% will also operate factories that generate resources, and mines that produce minerals ...
mch
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Ah, ok, re-reading I now understand what you mean with the 5% and 10% (math is not my strongest point, shouldn't have tried to answer your question  ). So reds count as a 5% world (and not 15%, memory must be starting to fail) for normal pop and installations, and the 10% are indeed what I meant with the 200% ...
Confusing, yes ... 
mch
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Sat, 27 December 2003 03:27 |
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I think there are times when it is better to not have OBRM, even for non AR races.
Miners can be used on the planets with the highest mineral concentrations of whatever you need most, so their cost isn't as high as it might seem.
Since most others are OBRM, you have another diplomatic tool (you can do something others can't). You can either trade mining ships or make deals for mineral rich planets and trade minerals.
You can strip mine your own high mineral planets including ones on the border, especially if you are IT. You prepare defences such as minefields, build a gate, gate in a huge stack of miners, mine the planet down, recolonise and pop up a gate and gate out the minelayers to the next place.
On borders that are currently safe but in future maybe not, it can be useful to strip mine so your planets don't look so tempting. Having planets with fewer mines on them also makes them less tempting for takeover.
For growth you may lose some due to poorer mine settings and lower pop limit on planets, but you also gain some due to less need to have colonists build mines, especially on new colonies (so they have more resources to focus on factories or terraforming).
Not choosing OBRM does not always mean poor mine settings. You might instead go for NAS to compensate for points, and try to trade for penn scans while you have more resistance to cloakers (with orbital checkers+longer range scans) which helps protect your miner investments.
For some games, a -f with good mining ships can be strong defensively. If you can't hold a planet you just abandon it without losing factories or perhaps even mines.
You also should have extra pop to work with which can also be used in trade. For example: "I'll pop drop prepare the enemies worlds for your quick takeover, in return you give me warships or techs".
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Sun, 28 December 2003 13:50 |
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 alexdstewart |
 | Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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About Universe Size and game pace:
Consider this: there is about 80% territory in large Uni as compared to standart Uni. Also, there are usually more players in Large Uni as compared to Med- 50% or something. The result- territories and distances between HW's are about the same as in med uni. Therefore local competition is as fierce in large galaxy as in med galaxy. The reason why large galaxy games are "slow" is because of increased no. of players- the more the players the harder it is for one particular race to swing the balance of force dramatically in their favour. And 50% more overall distance to travel to conquer all  .
Say, I choose an -f race for large size uni, and I find that most of my neighbours are HP's and AR's 'cause they are the econs for a "slow" game. Hmm, an -f next to loads of HP's and AR's- cheez what da yea think is going to happen?  I think I would be able to finish carving up a large empire for myself in midgame- since my losses against HP's + AR's would be minimal as compared to HG in Med Uni games. By substantial I mean something like 600 ly radius or quater of the universe.
With an empire of this size, I don't think that my neighbours will find the game very slow - not at all.
So, although galaxy size does affect the mean pace of the game, this effect pales in comparison to other random factors, it is perfectly possible to have "slug" small universe and "rollercoaster" large universe IMO
In the Future there is only WAR...
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Mon, 29 December 2003 12:40 |
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| Kotk | 
| Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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In most of the games the victory or loss is not entirely in your own hands. Even if i have never played ordinary (no HE no AR)races with immunities, i have played against them.
I still do not get how building piles of remote miners helps you.  Say ... you build miners for 150K resources, he built jugger cruisers, heavy blaster BB-s, minibombers and chaff for 150K resources same time. Who will more likely win?  Does it matter you can build too? There is 150k fleet coming and you can match it maybe after losing 10-15 planets to that fleet first. No, diplo will not halt him, do not tell me. He has put 150K into warships is he noob or something he stops there? 
Poweful orbitals? Ultras??? You have Immunity, 10/3/17 mines, ISB, no OBRM, 1 in 4 hab? With what you paid? CE, NAS, NRSE, no IFE, 1 cheap tech plus 15% growth? 
Have you EVER tried AR? Contrary to what you say AR has usually enough minerals lying around about turn 2450 to put half of its resources into remote miners for 6 turns or so. After that it mine more than can use.
My game speed estimations are given roughly as from where to start when you have no idea how to estimate how long the game will last. Did i say these are laws of nature? There are multiple other factors: the number of players, slow tech, public scores... etc.
Medium universe is most common and medium universe games are usually decided by 2500 by some OBRM JOAT ... but not always. They still last bit longer than tiny or small game thats usually over by 2470. I have not been in medium game where remote miner race was some main power or won solo so ... way to go for you. 
-f in large.  -f in large is like killing 2 neighbours and then turning into double weaker HG within double bigger territory. Fight then ... 100 planets colonized 60k resources versus their 120k resources from 60 planets?
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Mon, 29 December 2003 21:09 |
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| Kotk wrote on Mon, 29 December 2003 10:40 |
I still do not get how building piles of remote miners helps you. Say ... you build miners for 150K resources,
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I have not been in medium game where remote miner race was some main power or won solo so ... way to go for you.
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Fight then ... 100 planets colonized 60k resources versus their 120k resources from 60 planets?
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Regular mines cost too. Remote mines can be destroyed if they don't run away, regular mines can't run away and can also be taken over and used against you.
Not seeing a remote miner race being the dominant power is not such a suprise if few people play it. It is like if nobody plays PP, you will rarely see a PP win. Yet being unusual has its strengths diplomacy wise, just as having different habs than others helps co-hab - if you can use it right.
Your example with the -f is not the most accurate: the -f should have gained elsewhere for his choices, such as double the hab. He still may be weaker if everyone builds up but not as much as you say.
The -f needs to keep growing and thrives on conflict, wide areas of bombing desolation, etc. If you can change the dynamics to an active game and at the same time can get some others to help you rather than all gang up on you, -f has promise in a micro management intensive sort of way.
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Tue, 30 December 2003 06:01 |
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| alexdstewart |
| Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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| multilis wrote on Mon, 29 December 2003 21:09 |
Regular mines cost too.
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Yep, yea can take assume remote mining ops to cost 5res/mine. Relatively expensive for sure, but well worth the effort. I canna believe the threats of all consuming boogie warfleet just next door to me when I look at the my battle sim and see that a fully minutuarised typical jihad battleship costs yea half a k in iron and a bit more in res. 'Em must be excpensive indeed at the start. So expensive indeed that I canna believe that limited mining capacity of OBRM economy can afford it. Sure U can build galaxy buster fleet in five turns, but after that you are like IMPOTENT. It will take some time to reassemble such a fleet into a fighting force and make it reach my borders. By that time I am already building my own galaxy buster (I hope) fleet and with my double mining rate a can build it for longer, while you try to find some more minerals to pump into a war economy. Missiles are the ultimate weapons in the midgame, and missiles need iron, ALOT of iron, you canna sustain such iron consumption based only on planetary mines, hence you gonna find yourself outgunned by an inferior economy which however has a better mineral base.
Defenders have advantage over attackers, and it is fairly easy to stall an offencive for 5 yrs or so, no problem. 
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Tue, 30 December 2003 06:36 |
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| alexdstewart |
| Chief Warrant Officer 2 |
Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD. | |
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| Kotk wrote on Mon, 29 December 2003 12:40 |
-f in large. -f in large is like killing 2 neighbours and then turning into double weaker HG within double bigger territory. Fight then ... 100 planets colonized 60k resources versus their 120k resources from 60 planets?
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100 planets from the two fallen neighbours- sounds reasonable, almost... Taking the immunity and over pop into account- 80k is more like it...
Now, there is NO WAY that HG guy can have 60 Greens in Large, with 14-15 other players with nomal density. There are 512 planets in Large Normal. 512/15=34 planets per player. That HG must have been taking advantage of 'em dead HP's I recon. Or so'une is not sensitive about their territorial integrity. Either way an -f in large that has just rolled over it's is on the roll. Bio growth is exponential, and territory growth is x^2 the extra space (if there is much extra space) of Large Normal can be filled in quickly. This facts produce military force shockwaves that are more powerfull in Large Galaxy than in Normal 'une. Those shockwaves are correspondingly harder to counter by factory races.
Even HG go through cycle of settelement and industrialisation. When the -f's hit, HG outer colonies are not industrialized nor are properly entrenched. They could hardly resist the incoming wave in timely matter.
Large Galaxy has double the territory of Normal but the distances travelled to conquer the whole of Galaxy are just 33% more. The additional space can be quickly colonized due to exponential growth (7 additional turns) and distances are not that much more of a problem than in Normal. Therefore and -f race that can put up and even win in Normal galaxy against HG's will absolutely roll over HP's+AR's +some HG in Large, if MM is not a problem.
In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables) |
Tue, 30 December 2003 15:30 |
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| Kotk |
| Commander |
Messages: 1227
Registered: May 2003 | |
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| multilis wrote on Tue, 30 December 2003 04:09 |
Not seeing a remote miner race being the dominant power is not such a suprise if few people play it. It is like if nobody plays PP, you will rarely see a PP win. Yet being unusual has its strengths diplomacy wise, just as having different habs than others helps co-hab - if you can use it right.
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There has always been at least 2 remote miner races in larger games i have played. Often there is one in medium games too. So not too few play them but they somehow dont make it.
I have won a game with PP but that was long time ago and game was classified as "beginner" game.
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Your example with the -f is not the most accurate: the -f should have gained elsewhere for his choices, such as double the hab. He still may be weaker if everyone builds up but not as much as you say.
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Tell the numbers then if mine are not accurate why such guesswork where i was wrong? How much he is stronger/weaker alone in tiny dense by 2440, 2450 and 2460?
Here come my numbers about fully built territories from competition you will likely face in large universe:
1) Full 100% planet of others give 2(HE) 2.4(AR) 2.9(OBRM HG), 3.5(OBRM HP), 2.6(miner HG), 3.2(miner HP) times more resources than for -f. OK?
2) -f has his one immune 1 in 4 and 3.5 tech cheap. 2 from 3 at full terra. OK?
3) Average large game HG or HP got 1 in 4 without immunities and 1.5 tech cheap. 3 from 4 at full terra but smaller average planet value. Still 3 to 3.5 times the econ of -f. OK?
4) AR got about same hab as -f and 2.5 tech cheap. So 2 from 3 at full terra ... 2.4 times the econ once it is fully full. OK?
5) There may be one or two one-immune 1 in 8 HG-s... with cheaper tech, better factories and/or remote mining. 1 from 2 at full terra. 2 times the econ. OK?
6) There is sometimes casual 3 immune HE. Everything habitable. 3.5 cheap tech. 3 times the econ. OK?
7) Everyone get 2-3.5 times the resources from same territory as -f. OK?
Now conclusion: To stay competive with HP-s who kept their own and maybe traded few planets and HG-s who doubled their space by killing one neighbour -f has to get 4 times the territory by 2450 and thats next to impossible in the universe with national territories of 400x400 ly.  Since your MM is pain of the all pains in large you are unable to enjoy even being the bad guy and the public enemy.
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The -f needs to keep growing and thrives on conflict, wide areas of bombing desolation, etc. If you can change the dynamics to an active game and at the same time can get some others to help you rather than all gang up on you, -f has promise in a micro management intensive sort of way.
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True... it needs to conflict like crazy to kill 3 of them by 2450. Thats quite doable against AI-s, you can take even 4 of them out. Against real players its rather hard.
Also its damn diplomacy genius needed to get some neighbour to help you if you surprise them by starting full scale genocide war against other neighbour at 2422. They assume you are very stupid (so worth to kill) or very dangerous to everyone (so worth to gang against).
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Are you trolling? 
HPs and AR-s are quite competive if you fight 1 against 3 so it takes skill to kill them 2 before 2450. -f who is badly beaten by OWW-s in tiny, can win in small and has some chances in medium will just make useless noise in large where winner has armaggedons and nubians before -f's mark 4 cruisers reach his space. 