Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Mineral Extraction Timetables
Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 06:07 Go to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Damn it, Evil or Very Mad

I should have known that I can't trust every word the manual says (in fact I am yet to see a 100% accurate manual). Evil or Very Mad

Anways here is the story: the mineral concentration reduction formula in the manual is wrong, complitely and utterly so!!! You remember 12500/min con=mine yrs for 1pt of min con? Well, this works perfectly if min con is 100 but it realy starts to deviate. The formula that they give in the manual predicts that on average you'll get 5000 kt of each min from a single world. The real figure is closer to 20000+ kt!!! Shocked

I do not yet have the formula for calc minerals from min con, and I get the feeling that you canna derive it due to descrite nature of min con=minerals conversions. The data table I got from testbed is shown below.

It appears that the game engine calculates minerals given from min con rating of a world rather than vice versa.


[Updated on: Wed, 17 December 2003 06:13]




In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
Here is the table, I used 100 mines in the testbed:

Min Con % lvl____turns to next lvl___min gain in transition
95_______________7___________________687___________687______ _7
90_______________7___________________651___________1338_____ _14
85_______________8___________________704___________2042_____ _22
80_______________9___________________746___________2788_____ _31
75_______________10__________________780___________3568_____ _41
70_______________12__________________875___________4443_____ _53
65_______________13__________________882___________5325_____ _66
60_______________16__________________1006__________6331_____ _79
55_______________18__________________1041__________7372_____ _97
50_______________22__________________1163__________8535_____ _119
45_______________26__________________1247__________9782_____ _145
40_______________34__________________1458__________11240____ _179
35_______________42__________________1591__________12831____ _221
30_______________56__________________1840__________14671____ _277
25_______________77__________________2147__________16818____ _354
20_______________103_________________2361__________19179____ _457
15_______________129_________________2307__________21486____ _586
10_______________174_________________2237__________23723____ _760
5________________268_________________2090__________25813____ 1028
___________________________________________________total Kt____T. turn
Here is how to use the table: min con is devided in 5% levels, second column shows time it takes to get to that level from level above using 100 mines, i. e. the very first row shows time it takes to get from 100% to 95% min con with 100 mines. The third column shows how many minerals you get in such transition in kt.
To apply this to a particular world, use factor of 100 mines as compared to number of mines on the actual world to adjust the second column. Mine efficiency is reflected in the third column.
Mines that are twice as efficient will get mineral values in the third colum doubled.
I just hope there would be at least some people who care and can understand the instructions above... Confused


[Updated on: Wed, 17 December 2003 17:58]




In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 10:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
A formula of N/conc^2 works. N is somewhere between 1000000 and 1500000. You would need to do single levels of conentration to figure out the exact number.



- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 11:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mazda is currently offline mazda

 
Lieutenant

Messages: 655
Registered: April 2003
Location: Reading, UK
That's the amount extracted at a given conc, right ?

What would be good to know would be the total over a certain time interval.

I know that going from conc 100 to 30 gets you about 15000 of mins and 100 to 50 gets you about 8600 (at mine eff 10) but would like an easy expression for the length of time taken to get to a certain conc, and hence extract a certain amount.

Guess I'll try the maths when I get home ...

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 17:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
I've added the fourth column: it shows total number of minerals mined from day one until a certain min con is reached. To calc minerals extracted from 100 to 30 go to row 30 (since starting min con is 100) and U get 14671 Kt extracted. Going from 75 to 50, U go to row 50 column 4, and substract row 75 column 4.
eg. 50row(8535)-75row(3568)=4967Kt Very Happy

I'll add the total time column soon, that would allow to calc the time it takes to go from one level to another. It will work in a simular way as column 4. Cool

Cheers.


[Updated on: Wed, 17 December 2003 17:43]




In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alexdstewart is currently offline alexdstewart

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 164
Registered: July 2003
Location: Brisbane, QLD.
LEit wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 10:26

A formula of N/conc^2 works. N is somewhere between 1000000 and 1500000. You would need to do single levels of conentration to figure out the exact number.



Care to expand on it a little? This formula looks suspiciously just like the first formula I tried Confused . And I THINK it doesn't work. However I get the feeling that it is at least in the right direction. Razz

Remember, I need the formula for calc minerals extracted+time depending on mineral concentration levels and mining rate. It must be the integral of those but I'll be damn if I can integrate them. Embarassed


[Updated on: Wed, 17 December 2003 18:07]




In the Future there is only WAR...
Therefore our extinction is assured, it is just a matter of where and when.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 17 December 2003 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LEit is currently offline LEit

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT
alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 18:06

Care to expand on it a little? This formula looks suspiciously just like the first formula I tried Confused . And I THINK it doesn't work. However I get the feeling that it is at least in the right direction.


The ^2 means squared.
1250000/conc^2

So for 100 concentration, it will take 1250000/100^2 or 125 mine years to drop the concentration by 1.

At a concentration of 100, it's the same as the manual, at lower concentrtion, you it slows down a lot, the numbers match your test numbers very well.

Integrals might matter, but the formual is not continous. In other words, if you have 2500 mines and 100 min concentration, you will drop the concentration by 20 after mining the full year at 100. Continous would be mining for 125 mines at 100, and then at 99, and so on...

What you probably need is a sum of individual years.



- LEit

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Sun, 21 December 2003 17:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike B is currently offline Mike B

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 6
Registered: December 2003
Location: Ottawa Canada
from newbie...
OBRM means squat to me.

In 2nd post of this thread...
Mines that are twice as efficient will get mineral values in the third colum doubled.

A mine or miner is the same ...no?
The mineral efficiency of the planet determines the efficiency, not the type of mine. alright, mining robots can have different capacities. I always thought of it as a 27 mining robot...was equivalent to 27 mines while an 18 mining robot was equivalent to 18 mines.

Did i miss something in the last 10 yrs since creation of the game and when i originally bought it?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Sun, 21 December 2003 19:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
You missed the concept of racial mine efficiency.

This has no effect on remote miners, but it does on planetary mines.

Specifically, it increases the amount of minerals a given mine pulls per year, without affecting the rate of concentration decrease.

The concentration decrease is based on mine-years and nothing else.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Sun, 21 December 2003 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mike B is currently offline Mike B

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 6
Registered: December 2003
Location: Ottawa Canada
Does Racial mine efficiency exist...in 2.70i ?
I have never seen/heard of such.
What race or trait?
What game version?
Thankyou.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Sun, 21 December 2003 20:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sotek is currently offline Sotek

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002
I've only played versions i and j, but it's in both.

On the econ page, the one with factories and mine settings, mines have three settings.

"Every ten mines produce up to [number] kt of each mineral every year."

"Mines require [number] resources to build."

and

"Every 10,000 colonists may operate up to [number] mines."

You can change each of the three numbers; the first one is efficiency as I mentioned before, the second is cost, or how much it costs to build mines, and the third is number operated; that is, how many mines you can operate.

The first affects the amount of minerals you can pull out at a given concentration before it lowers.
The second affects how quickly you can build mines.
The third determines how many mines can be built, and thus how many mineyears you can have on a planet at once.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 24 December 2003 06:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
alexdstewart wrote on Thu, 18 December 2003 00:15

Does anyone care to expand on the topic and discuss the stratigic implications of this. I can already see that it takes about 60-70 turns for a 1000 mine world(some said the average) to kick hit the "extrime" shortage of minerals threshold. Therefore I expect 25th century to be the death time for most of mine dependent races. Twisted Evil (U can already tell I HATE OBRM's) Laughing


After this question to expand the topic it turned into a discussion about OBRM/no ORBM, that part was moved into a new topic which also can be found in the Academy: OBRM/not OBRM (and immunities) (split off from Mineral Extraction Timetables).

mch,
mod.a.w.


[Updated on: Tue, 31 August 2004 16:06]

Report message to a moderator

icon4.gif  Closed for maintenance (Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables) Wed, 24 December 2003 07:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
This topic is temporary locked, there seem to be some problems with it ...

mch

Report message to a moderator

Topic unlocked (Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables) Thu, 25 December 2003 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Micha

 

Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1
Topic is open again,

mch,
mod.a.w.


[Updated on: Tue, 31 August 2004 16:06]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 04 March 2020 04:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Lqdtr is currently offline Lqdtr

 
Crewman 1st Class

Messages: 28
Registered: February 2012
Location: Ru
Mineral Concentrations & Remote Mining" by Jason Cawley

Summing up, to approximate the minerals for a concentration change, use the following piece-wise function -
ending con >= 27 : 12500 * ln (starting con / ending con)
ending con 26-4 : 462 * (starting con - ending con)
ending con 3, 2 : 1000 each
ending con 1 : 2000.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 04 March 2020 09:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
Lqdtr wrote on Wed, 04 March 2020 20:47
Mineral Concentrations & Remote Mining" by Jason Cawley

Summing up, to approximate the minerals for a concentration change, use the following piece-wise function -
ending con >= 27 : 12500 * ln (starting con / ending con)
ending con 26-4 : 462 * (starting con - ending con)
ending con 3, 2 : 1000 each
ending con 1 : 2000.


Cawley says there's a loophole causing you to get more minerals with rapid mining. This would be the case if the mining required to drop a level was defined as 1250000/conc^2 mine-years but the minerals given were mines*conc, because then you'd get e.g. 2000 kT from 2000 mines on 100 conc but only inflict 2000 mine-years of impact (whereas with 1000 mines over 2 years you'd inflict 2000 mine-years of impact, but you'd only get 1930 kT because the conc was 93 in the second year).

However, Cawley is wrong. Mining impact required to drop a level is defined as 12500*(RWeffic/10)/conc minerals extracted, not in terms of mine-years. Thus, while 2000 mines does extract minerals more than twice as fast as 1000 mines, it also depletes the concentrations more than twice as fast.

He's also wrong about something else; it doesn't "go linear" at 27 with 12500/27 = 462 kT/point, but rather at 25 with 12500/25 = 500 kT/point. 4 -> 3 is also more than 1000 kT; I'm suspecting 1200. Haven't yet tested 3 -> 2 and 2 -> 1.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Wed, 04 March 2020 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
Okay, I correct myself. There is an arcane coding thing going on, but it's nothing as simple or as relevant as what Cawley assumed.

Basically, minerals mined come out roughly normally when conc*mines/100 is not an integer (I'm not sure exactly how it calculates it, but it seems to work), but the "mining rate" rounds down, and for some reason the "mining rate" is what's used to calculate depletion. So if you have 99 conc and 1 mine, then you'll be mining ~0.99 minerals per turn (which you'll actually get, averaged over X turns), but the mine depletion is zero.

But it gets stranger. See, the Jeffs apparently noticed this issue, and rather than fix it by making them both run off the same thing they implemented another complication into the formula: mineral depletion is multiplied by (n+1)/n, where n is the number of mines. This happens after the round-down, though, so in the case of 1 mine and 99 conc it'll still never deplete (0.99 rounds down to 0, and 2*0 = 0). But with 1 mine and 100 conc the conc will decrease to 99 after only 63 turns (as the depletion is 1, and that is doubled to 2).

This is very weird, but it doesn't really matter under normal circumstances. It just makes mineral depletion testing rather bizarre. The only real-game impact of this (since having 1 mine, while it might avoid depletion, will give less minerals than 1000 mines at turn X for all X) is that having a number of mines divisible by 100 gives you about a 0.1% efficiency penalty (because you'll then never get the "free" minerals, but you'll still be penalised by the "correction", which is on the order of 0.1% for realistic mine numbers).

EDIT: To clarify, there's not another rounding after the (n+1)/n "correction". So if you have 3 mines with conc 99, you'll usually mine 3/turn (because it's actually 2.97) but your "mining rate" shows up as 2/turn and your real mineral depletion is 2 * 4/3 = 8/3 (~2.67) per turn (you'll deplete to 98 after 47-48 turns).

EDIT2: Also, depletion has to be more than the threshold to take effect; if it's equal nothing happens. So for instance 4 mines on conc 100 (which deplete at rate 5) will get to 125 depletion exactly at turn 25, but the conc stays at 100 for one more turn.

There is at least one more source of error which I haven't tracked down yet, of the order of 0.2%. This is bloody fiddly work.


[Updated on: Thu, 05 March 2020 00:54]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables Thu, 02 April 2020 06:39 Go to previous message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008
My previous post doesn't appear to be on the money. When you leave 2 mines on a planet, the number of years taken to deplete behaves in a bizarre fashion:

After 42 years, a conc-100 planet flips to 99 (at which point the mining rate is now "1").
After 79 more years, it flips to 98.
After 95 more years, it flips to 97.
After 127 more years, it flips to 96.
After 81 more years, it flips to 95.
After 100 more years, it flips to 94.
After 115 more years, it flips to 93.
After 91 more years, it flips to 92.
After 113 more years, it flips to 91.
After 88 more years, it flips to 90.
After 114 more years, it flips to 89.
After 95 more years, it flips to 88.

These are not random. They are replicable. But I have no idea where they come from. If you try it with 3 mines instead, you get this:

After 32 years, a conc 100 planet flips to 99 (the mining rate is now "2").
After 47 more years, it flips to 98.
After 52 more years, it flips to 97.
After 64 more years, it flips to 96.
After 49 more years, it flips to 95.

The mining rate above is what the interface reports, which I believe is relevant here (as a 1-mine planet with conc < 100 never depletes). The actual mining rate appears to be correct, but it is randomly generated (i.e. if you have 1 mine on a conc-99 planet you have a 99% chance of getting one Iron, a 99% chance of getting one Boron, and a 99% chance of getting one Germ). I haven't tested whether it changes on regen, but I know it changes testing multiple planets (they will mine different amounts, but will not deplete at different rates).

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: Some specific Nubian design questions
Next Topic: DOS Box Serial shenanigans..
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Sat Mar 02 04:35:23 EST 2024