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Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables 
Wed, 17 December 2003 21:15 

LEit   Lt. Commander  Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT  

alexdstewart wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 18:06  Care to expand on it a little? This formula looks suspiciously just like the first formula I tried . And I THINK it doesn't work. However I get the feeling that it is at least in the right direction.

The ^2 means squared.
1250000/conc^2
So for 100 concentration, it will take 1250000/100^2 or 125 mine years to drop the concentration by 1.
At a concentration of 100, it's the same as the manual, at lower concentrtion, you it slows down a lot, the numbers match your test numbers very well.
Integrals might matter, but the formual is not continous. In other words, if you have 2500 mines and 100 min concentration, you will drop the concentration by 20 after mining the full year at 100. Continous would be mining for 125 mines at 100, and then at 99, and so on...
What you probably need is a sum of individual years.
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Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables 
Sun, 21 December 2003 20:49 

Sotek   Chief Warrant Officer 2  Messages: 167
Registered: November 2002  

I've only played versions i and j, but it's in both.
On the econ page, the one with factories and mine settings, mines have three settings.
"Every ten mines produce up to [number] kt of each mineral every year."
"Mines require [number] resources to build."
and
"Every 10,000 colonists may operate up to [number] mines."
You can change each of the three numbers; the first one is efficiency as I mentioned before, the second is cost, or how much it costs to build mines, and the third is number operated; that is, how many mines you can operate.
The first affects the amount of minerals you can pull out at a given concentration before it lowers.
The second affects how quickly you can build mines.
The third determines how many mines can be built, and thus how many mineyears you can have on a planet at once.
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Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables 
Wed, 04 March 2020 09:12 

magic9mushroom   Commander  Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008  

Lqdtr wrote on Wed, 04 March 2020 20:47Mineral Concentrations & Remote Mining" by Jason Cawley
Summing up, to approximate the minerals for a concentration change, use the following piecewise function 
ending con >= 27 : 12500 * ln (starting con / ending con)
ending con 264 : 462 * (starting con  ending con)
ending con 3, 2 : 1000 each
ending con 1 : 2000.
Cawley says there's a loophole causing you to get more minerals with rapid mining. This would be the case if the mining required to drop a level was defined as 1250000/conc^2 mineyears but the minerals given were mines*conc, because then you'd get e.g. 2000 kT from 2000 mines on 100 conc but only inflict 2000 mineyears of impact (whereas with 1000 mines over 2 years you'd inflict 2000 mineyears of impact, but you'd only get 1930 kT because the conc was 93 in the second year).
However, Cawley is wrong. Mining impact required to drop a level is defined as 12500*(RWeffic/10)/conc minerals extracted, not in terms of mineyears. Thus, while 2000 mines does extract minerals more than twice as fast as 1000 mines, it also depletes the concentrations more than twice as fast.
He's also wrong about something else; it doesn't "go linear" at 27 with 12500/27 = 462 kT/point, but rather at 25 with 12500/25 = 500 kT/point. 4 > 3 is also more than 1000 kT; I'm suspecting 1200. Haven't yet tested 3 > 2 and 2 > 1.
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Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables 
Wed, 04 March 2020 21:48 

magic9mushroom   Commander  Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008  

Okay, I correct myself. There is an arcane coding thing going on, but it's nothing as simple or as relevant as what Cawley assumed.
Basically, minerals mined come out roughly normally when conc*mines/100 is not an integer (I'm not sure exactly how it calculates it, but it seems to work), but the "mining rate" rounds down, and for some reason the "mining rate" is what's used to calculate depletion. So if you have 99 conc and 1 mine, then you'll be mining ~0.99 minerals per turn (which you'll actually get, averaged over X turns), but the mine depletion is zero.
But it gets stranger. See, the Jeffs apparently noticed this issue, and rather than fix it by making them both run off the same thing they implemented another complication into the formula: mineral depletion is multiplied by (n+1)/n, where n is the number of mines. This happens after the rounddown, though, so in the case of 1 mine and 99 conc it'll still never deplete (0.99 rounds down to 0, and 2*0 = 0). But with 1 mine and 100 conc the conc will decrease to 99 after only 63 turns (as the depletion is 1, and that is doubled to 2).
This is very weird, but it doesn't really matter under normal circumstances. It just makes mineral depletion testing rather bizarre. The only realgame impact of this (since having 1 mine, while it might avoid depletion, will give less minerals than 1000 mines at turn X for all X) is that having a number of mines divisible by 100 gives you about a 0.1% efficiency penalty (because you'll then never get the "free" minerals, but you'll still be penalised by the "correction", which is on the order of 0.1% for realistic mine numbers).
EDIT: To clarify, there's not another rounding after the (n+1)/n "correction". So if you have 3 mines with conc 99, you'll usually mine 3/turn (because it's actually 2.97) but your "mining rate" shows up as 2/turn and your real mineral depletion is 2 * 4/3 = 8/3 (~2.67) per turn (you'll deplete to 98 after 4748 turns).
EDIT2: Also, depletion has to be more than the threshold to take effect; if it's equal nothing happens. So for instance 4 mines on conc 100 (which deplete at rate 5) will get to 125 depletion exactly at turn 25, but the conc stays at 100 for one more turn.
There is at least one more source of error which I haven't tracked down yet, of the order of 0.2%. This is bloody fiddly work.
[Updated on: Thu, 05 March 2020 00:54] Report message to a moderator



Re: Mineral Extraction Timetables 
Thu, 02 April 2020 06:39 

magic9mushroom   Commander  Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008  

My previous post doesn't appear to be on the money. When you leave 2 mines on a planet, the number of years taken to deplete behaves in a bizarre fashion:
After 42 years, a conc100 planet flips to 99 (at which point the mining rate is now "1").
After 79 more years, it flips to 98.
After 95 more years, it flips to 97.
After 127 more years, it flips to 96.
After 81 more years, it flips to 95.
After 100 more years, it flips to 94.
After 115 more years, it flips to 93.
After 91 more years, it flips to 92.
After 113 more years, it flips to 91.
After 88 more years, it flips to 90.
After 114 more years, it flips to 89.
After 95 more years, it flips to 88.
These are not random. They are replicable. But I have no idea where they come from. If you try it with 3 mines instead, you get this:
After 32 years, a conc 100 planet flips to 99 (the mining rate is now "2").
After 47 more years, it flips to 98.
After 52 more years, it flips to 97.
After 64 more years, it flips to 96.
After 49 more years, it flips to 95.
The mining rate above is what the interface reports, which I believe is relevant here (as a 1mine planet with conc < 100 never depletes). The actual mining rate appears to be correct, but it is randomly generated (i.e. if you have 1 mine on a conc99 planet you have a 99% chance of getting one Iron, a 99% chance of getting one Boron, and a 99% chance of getting one Germ). I haven't tested whether it changes on regen, but I know it changes testing multiple planets (they will mine different amounts, but will not deplete at different rates).
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