Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Defeating the factoryless race
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Wed, 11 February 2009 09:24 |
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johng316 | | Chief Warrant Officer 3 | Messages: 177
Registered: November 2002 Location: Indiana, USA | |
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Testing has some value, but it certainly isn't difinitive proof of anything. Not sure what would be accomplished.
CA is strong, no doubt, and other players already know this. It goes back to my original point that a coalition is necessary to control breakaway leaders (if you are not one of them).
We're arguing over which PRT is strongest... it doesn't matter. Each game will produce a few positions that are strong for some reason or another. Planet draw, wormholes, silly neighbors... all have an impact. If you find yourself overmatched or needing to control a leader, a coalition to oppose that power is probably what will emerge.
Some folks put way too much emphasis on race design and not enough on actual play (tactical, strategic, and diplomatic). A strong race design or PRT selection will not win you the game. Often it will LOSE the game for you if that's all you got.
Personally, I think strong play trumps race design and PRT selection. A strong player can win consistently against better race designs of weaker players.
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Wed, 11 February 2009 15:28 |
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Alter Ego | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002 Location: Germany | |
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johng316 wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 15:24 | Testing has some value, but it certainly isn't difinitive proof of anything. Not sure what would be accomplished.
SNIP
We're arguing over which PRT is strongest... it doesn't matter.
SNIP
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Hi!
Sorry, there was a little misunderstanding here. I wasn't trying to say that JoaT is stronger than CA. I think we all agree that CA is probably the strongest PRT - all other factors being equal (players of comparable skill etc.).
But I did feel that saying JoaT in not a strong contender in a large or huge game is a slight misrepresentation of the facts. I think it belongs to the group immediately following CA.
As to 'testing', I'll say something about that in the following post.
Regards,
AE
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Wed, 11 February 2009 15:40 |
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Alter Ego | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002 Location: Germany | |
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iztok wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 08:56 | Hi!
Alter Ego wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 21:06 | Of course there is a distinct chance that they will gang up on every CA in sight.
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That's about the only chance for other races to survive. They'd have a chance before CA hits the TT-25. With TT-25 it "monsterizes" so badly (84% planets livable, 56% of them breeders) it would be bloody hard to stop it.
IMO such a test in huge normal uni is not a real proof, because it would become a game of all others vs. CA(s). If there would not be enough CAs (like 5) to "spread" other races more proportionally, it would be pointless to play.
The "all-enemy" setting also negates the big diplo advantage CAs have: Orbital Adjusters. In normal games the player that meets his CA neighbour always has the big dilemma: if he fights it, it stalls his development, easily missing opportunity to win. But if he allies with CA, both can grow BIIIG, easily winning the game.
If one'd rally want to test CA capability, he should've put it in a small normal uni with one other race as opposition. Both races should also be played by the players of about the same level. And OFC repeat the test 10 times, to minimize impact of the starting conditions. Then he'd see the CA would win most of the time vs. any race but the ccmaster's duel -f HE .
BR, Iztok
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Hi Iztok!
As I just said, the aim this game would not be to test the abilities of the PRT CA, but rather to show that JoaT should not be disregarded when talking about PRTs which are well suited to a large or huge universe.
As a matter of fact, I would not regard such a game as a test of any kind. You are right of course: To test any of the PRTs would need a setup such as you suggested. And most other PRTs would have a problem against a CA in such a setting. Which would still be inconclusive...
Btw: I have beaten ccmaster in a duel, and he was playing his -f HE. He says his planet draw was unfavourable.
Anyway: The game I suggested was mainly intended as a chance for magicmushroom to show that JoaT is so much worse than CA that it doesn't stand a chance.
I'd be willing to go along with the players if they want to have different rules for the diplomatics. This would give the CAs a chance to make friends and would help other races with nice toys. It would be a disadvantage for JoaTs because they haven't got much to offer except their brute strength.
If magicmushroom is interested in the game, I'll set up an announcement in a separate thread.
Regards,
AE
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 12 February 2009 05:29 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1209
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05 | In fact, the late game was not the most busy part.
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That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face:
- constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper,
- constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them,
- opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships,
- your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM,
- your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM,
- constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there,
- painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM,
- enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM,
- your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders,
- your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets,
- you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom,
- you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately
- after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that.
BR, Iztok
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 12 February 2009 07:53 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:29 | Hi!
m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05 | In fact, the late game was not the most busy part.
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That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face:
- constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper,
- constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them,
- opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships,
- your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM,
- your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM,
- constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there,
- painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM,
- enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM,
- your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders,
- your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets,
- you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom,
- you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately
- after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that.
BR, Iztok
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AMEN!
mch
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 14 February 2009 13:32 |
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Alter Ego | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002 Location: Germany | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 09:12 | Hi!
The game will be won by a person who can do the most MM grind, not the best player.
BR, Iztok
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Hi!
A player who is not willing to devote himself to MM can never be a really good Stars-player. That holds true regardless of the size of the universe.
Of course different settings entail differing amounts of MM. But the same holds for different PRTs and for certain SRTs.
SD is a good example. If you want to succeed with that PRT, you have to be willing to do more MM than most other races.
A race with NAS that does not have the ability to pen-scan by other means (JoaT, PP, SS for example) will have to make up for that lack by an increase in MM. He will have to make sure that he is not attacked by planet hopping fleets, and he will have to ping planets to see enemy fleets.
But of course you are right with the general thrust of your post: players who are not willing or able to devote themselves to the MM neccessary should not join a game such as this, otherwise they will end up as cannonfodder.
Regards,
AE
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 14 February 2009 13:35 |
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Alter Ego | | Officer Cadet 4th Year | Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002 Location: Germany | |
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[email | m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05]
SNIP
Coordination with allies and Diplomacy took far more than that, though.
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Hi!
This was the main reason why I suggested a game with all other players set to enemy and without communication.
But we are drifting away from the subject of this thread again. Maybe Micha wants to split this off and move it to a separate thread?
Regards,
AE
[Updated on: Sat, 14 February 2009 13:36]
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Tue, 24 March 2009 15:14 |
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Mmmh, so I am playing a -f for the first time. By pure chance *grin* in a game with John playing an HP and Alter Ego playing a SD: Stone Age Slaughter.
To share my newly gained experiences on how to fight a -f (as seen from the receiving side):
1) Diplomacy, as mentioned by several players before, is a handy and easy thing. A -f needs to play aggressively and thus gives a diplomatically minded enemy an easy opening to form an alliance against the poor -f. But a good -f shouldn't just attack everybody. That's a misunderstanding and taking "play aggressively" a bit too literally. As always and for as long as possible, one should strife to attack only 1 enemy. Annihilate this enemy as fast as possible and then turn on the next.
2) Fight fire with fire: the worst thing for a -f is a -f. Usually -f players will try to feed not on each other but on easier prey. But if -f fights -f because being forced to, by inexperience or due to an assessment error... it will doom both -f players for sure.
3) If a -f detects that one neighbour doesn't share his hab at all and the other neighbour is a SD... it will become very very difficult, too. Fighting a SD isn't easy. But more importantly, it usually takes more time and more ressources to do so than against any other PRT. The slowed down expansion might be already enough to doom the -f.
Something similar is true if a -f tries to fight a WM early on.
Conclusion:
While I do like to play in an aggressive style and to attack early, I am not sure wether I like -f. It's a bit eery when you hear the clock ticking all the time until the factory-races, not obliterated yet, will take over the battlefield.
edit: typos
[Updated on: Mon, 30 March 2009 12:19] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 26 March 2009 15:12 |
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The best way to defeat a -f race is to stall him until your econ can provide a decisive advantage in tech and production.
You can do this by having a farther border than usual w/gates and frigate minelayers.
you will lose some orbitals and planets combating a -f, that is inevitable. You will slow him down some and be able to gate out or in before a attack.
Another tactic is shipping interdiction. Remember a -f races econ is pop. Killing pop freighters hurts bad. Cloaked minelayers don't hurt either.
The most lethal tactic a -f can use in early game is dd blackjack swarm for sb killing. These swarms are built using shell spacedock hulls with gates only usually.
Killing one also hurts. Watch for the swarm and have fleets ready to knock down these docks. this will delay him usually 5 dds per dock.
Every thing you can do to slow down the -f in the long run will help. Their cheap techs will stop helping them compete sooner or later. Eventualy you will be able to make 4 ccs or more for his 2 per 50 percent hold world.
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 27 March 2009 14:40 |
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you are correct that all these things do stall your economy but the only way to beat -f is to stagnate their econ. I guess qs or hg races are better suited for this strategy than heavily fac dependent races.
-f is a tough nut to crack especially ca, joat, wm, and it.
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 02 April 2009 01:41 |
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pydna | | Warrant Officer | Messages: 131
Registered: April 2009 Location: Melbourne, Australia | |
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Hi all,
I'm fairly new to Stars and am only playing in my second game. I got totally trashed in my first game (lasted a mere 21 turns) before getting swallowed by a -f race.
This time around I did some reading and I'm really glad I did, I'm doing much better but have run into a -f again! He was pretty aggressive right from the first encounter(turn 7).
What I've found works well is a scorched earth style war. Raid worlds, especially those that are red to you take in extra empty freighters, steal all the minerals and leave nothing, then leave them empty with nothing but a picket above them. If you play your cards right he will them have waste time re-colonising them. I've found this really annoys a -f player.
They usually are little bit more cautious about pop bombing, remember his pop are more valuable to him because they are his resource. Choose where you occupy, if you do take a world off him if you have over 70,000 he is very unlikely to attack you and if he does, that means he is starting to feel the squeeze.
Also do some intel, work out his hab range asap(suicide scout to his HW if you aren't a JOAT). I worked out what he likes hab wise and now am systematically making him work tooth an nail to get what he likes.
Finally if he isn't a JOAT, then use it your advantage. Planet hop into his rear NEW colonies with a few bombers and destroyers and waste his new colonies if you can. Sure you will be shot down but hopefully you have taken out 3 or 4 of his colonies before he catches you.
Make his life miserable. Make him waste resources having to garrision worlds that only have 5000 pop on them, make him waste time escorting convoys. Generally make him waste resources on everything except building fleets and researching. Becuase if you are a factory race all you need is time and you will overtake him.
The game I'm playing is difficult because it looks like has done a deal with two other players before the game started (we all know each other outside the game) it looks like they have built their races to compliment each other tech wise.
Although now I've taken worlds so they have run a gauntlet through two of my destroyer squadrons if they want to link up.
Oh don't expect this to hurt a -f straight away. It is gradual, in a way it is a slow death of a 1000 cuts.
Just remember if you manage to trip him up and he is on the ground put your boot on his neck and squeeze.
You have to play agressive against a -f but don't challenge him directly. Starve him out.
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 02 April 2009 03:13 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:29 | Hi!
That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face:
- constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper,
- constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them,
- opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships,
- your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM,
- your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM,
- constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there,
- painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM,
- enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM,
- your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders,
- your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets,
- you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom,
- you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately
- after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that.
BR, Iztok
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I have not read a thread in which this post would be off topic.
Kudos
[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 08:42] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 02 April 2009 05:04 |
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neilhoward wrote on Thu, 02 April 2009 19:13 |
iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:29 |
scary scary stuff
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I have not read a thread in which this post would be off topic.
Kudos
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Yep. This is why I, and many others, will never be rated experts.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 05:05] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Thu, 02 April 2009 13:03 |
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pydna wrote on Thu, 02 April 2009 07:41 | I'm fairly new to Stars and am only playing in my second game.
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Welcome to Stars!
Quote: | They usually are little bit more cautious about pop bombing, remember his pop are more valuable to him because they are his resource. Choose where you occupy, if you do take a world off him if you have over 70,000 he is very unlikely to attack you and if he does, that means he is starting to feel the squeeze.
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This is certainly true: always colonice in strength, never below 20k, better between 40-80k. Gives your colony strength in numbers and if even more is needed, a fort or dock is easily put up.
Quote: | I worked out what he likes hab wise and now am systematically making him work tooth an nail to get what he likes.
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Well done.
Knowing what planets the enemy wants most is always a great advantage and helps a lot to contain the -f.
Quote: | Finally if he isn't a JOAT, then use it your advantage. Planet hop into his rear NEW colonies with a few bombers and destroyers and waste his new colonies if you can. Sure you will be shot down but hopefully you have taken out 3 or 4 of his colonies before he catches you.
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Using a few bombers is highly inefficient. Either use enough to bomb every damned colonist to dust or use other means.
Then again, if you have built enough bombers, eg 41 m70-mini-bombers or more, don't waste them on small colonies but try to build also sufficient destroyers or cruisers to attack his important worlds, always best: his HW.
Quote: | You have to play agressive against a -f but don't challenge him directly. Starve him out.
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The general problem is to make it "efficient". Otherwise, while you were perhaps successful in beating the -f, the other players might have grown in strength beyond your reach.
Usually the cheapest way is to contain a -f and to outgrow him.
[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 13:04] Report message to a moderator
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