 Odd Warship Behavior |
Fri, 19 December 2003 20:22  |
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Following case is from a current active game. I investigated the case as host and finally opted to not force a regeneration of the turn. However, players should be warned that, at a minimum, battleships armed solely with Range 2 beams and using "default" (Maximize Damage Ratio) orders are vulnerable to behave in a manner that I think most would find unexpected. 
Further testing is being done. If anything real definite is found I'm sure a follow-up will be posted. Thanks to Leit for helping out with this issue a lot.
======= On with the show ======
Numbers and ship descriptions not 100% accurate since it doesn't make much difference.
The situation. Three races on the battleboard.
Race A and Race B are allied. Both are Enemies of Race C.
Race A: Four tokens
A1: Mini bombers (count as an armed ship) - default orders (but that means they'll run)
A2: A few scout chaff (armed with R1 beams) - default orders
A3: 13 ship BB token (armed with R2 beams) - default orders
A4: 1 ship BB token (armed with R2 beams) - default orders
Race B: One token
B1: CA (armed with R2 beams) - "sniper" orders (Unarmed ships, disengage if challenged)
This token doesn't affect the issue below. Just mentioned for completeness.
Race C: Four tokens
C1: 1 ship BB token (R2 beams and R3 sappers) - default orders
C2: 1 ship BB token (R2 beams and R3 sappers) - default orders
C3: 1 ship BB token (R2 Gatlings) - "sniper" orders (as above)
C4: Orbital Fort (unarmed) - default orders (by default)
The Battle:
A1 runs - and leaves the board eventually
A2 charges in and dies eventually
A3 and A4 charge in initially
B1 charges in (after the fort probably) and gets shot
Pretty normal reactions...
C4 sits since it can't do anything
C3 *sits* and does nothing since there are no unarmed targets on the battleboard (the bombers count as armed ships). And it will not attempt to disengage until something fires on it.
C1 and C2 move forward to engage - but being lighter try to move last and back out to Range 3 to use the sappers (Maximize Damage Ratio - moving back to Range 3 allows them to sap shields without taking any return fire.)
Still pretty normal so far.
Then, A3 and A4 stop at Range 3 from C3 and refuse to move closer.
C1 and C2 then sit still as well at Range 3 and continue sapper fire.
Battle runs out of time and ends.
It appears that the A3 and A4 tokens are unwilling to move into range of the gatling BB. This is probably an unexpected result of some sort of damage ratio calculation. Probably not based on token size at all since 1 BB seems to be standing of 14+ BBs.
C1 and C2 have no reason to move in closer since they can sit at Range 3 and continue sapper fire per a favorable damage ratio.
Some further testing by Leit seems to indicate this is primarily a problem with battleships. Range 2 beam Nubians don't appear to behave the same way. (Which to me implies that the Max Damage Ratio calculation is possibly a somewhat complex formula looking at firepower and/or initiative differences. Perhaps ship "rating" even.)
Recommendation is that beamer fleets be given Maximize Damage orders in order to avoid this issue from occurring.
If someone wishes to do, or has done, further research on how orders interact and the issue of R2/R3 beamer designs than a comment here would be welcome.
- Kurt
[Updated on: Fri, 19 December 2003 20:31] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Odd Warship Behavior |
Fri, 19 December 2003 21:15  |
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 LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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For the test, I copied the ships exactly, and even put them in the same slots as they had been in. I think that was overkill, but havn't been able to test other options.
Modifications that didn't affect the behavior:
Dropping the Cruiser from the battle
Merging the BBs into a stack of 14
Adding delta torps and range 1 and 2 beams to the fort (three different tests)
Modifications that made the battle more like what you would expect:
Making the gatling BB leave
Giving the gatling BB default orders
Giving the attacking BBs max damage orders
I also tried with different designs:
Different designs that didn't duplicate the behavior:
AMP nubians vs Cruisers with Mega Ds and Gatlings
AMP nubians vs Mega D & Gatling nubians, with empty slots instead of deflectors
1 Gatling BB, some MegaD BBs vs range 2 BBs
Every so often one of the sapper ships would drift into range and take damage or get killed (depending on what it drifted into range of), but the range 2s never got into range of the Gatling ship. With the range 2 weapons on the fort (effective range 3) the range 2 BBs backed off for a turn, and the sappers moved forward and died.
I think it has to do with the gatling armed ships and the ratio calculation.
My take on it is that it's probably too complex to use against some one. However to keep it from happening to you, I recommend using 'max damage' orders for beamers, especially shorter then range 3 beamers.
If it is possible to figure out how to 'abuse' this, it could be very nasty if you could use it against AMP nubians. However, the counter to this is very easy.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Odd Warship Behavior |
Sat, 20 December 2003 04:06 |
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Isn't there a reported bug like this involving Sappers? And R2 beams? Is this different from that?
Rule 1: "Pillage, THEN burn!"Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Odd Warship Behavior |
Sat, 20 December 2003 05:33 |
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There is. This would seem to act in an opposite fashion, making it an exploitable bug.
Generally its a bad idea to mix sappers and beams because of the "other" bug. But with that you only lose 1 round of firepower whereas in return you *might* get free shots for the whole battle.
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| Re: Odd Warship Behavior |
Mon, 22 December 2003 08:51 |
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| LEit |
| Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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| Robert wrote on Mon, 22 December 2003 03:43 |
Is it possible to give chaff some orders that make them unlikely to move at all???
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Here are some interesting chaff orders:
none/none/disengage: chaff will flee, and attacking ships will advance, if the enemy has fast missile ships, this can easily draw them into range of your beamers soon. The problem is that chaff will move last, and the missile ships will move to max range (6 for ARMs) and then the chaff will move out of range.
none/none/disengage if challenged: chaff will sit still on round 1, then after the missiles hit, they will start to retreat, moving back one more square. It might not work if the missile ships don't advance far enough, but it's worked well for me.
none/none/max ratio (or any other tactic except the disengage ones): chaff will sit still till the end of the battle. Note it will not shoot at anything either, but that's not normally an issue.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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