My vision for Pockets of Planets would be a (Extra - Huge Universe)that is roughly 3000 light years per side (this actually using stretch, which can build bigger universes than universe creator)

The host race would be an active participant, comparable to the Spacer Guild in Dune. Ships would be transferred to the Guild and shipped through the gate. The gates would have a limited number of destinations each (probably two) and all pockets would not be accessible to the guild (although all populated pockets are accessible to the guild.) Note: there is a design limitation here so the race wishing to move would have to petition to move and petitions would be serviced on a first come, first serve basis.

The universe would allow for the trader so jumpgates are accessible, but normal gates are banned.

The victory conditions would require conquering a number of starting pockets (ie either protecting your own, or taking over others, or preferably a combination of both) and conquering of a number of the uncolonized pockets.

Race limits:
No SS (jump start gives them a major advantage)
No IT (who would want it anyway when they can't build gates)
All other races would be acceptable.

Universe definition... stretched 640 planets (large packed)
roughly 21 pockets of 15 planets with room for 8 players.

Thoughts?

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Captain Maim wrote on Thu, 04 December 2003 03:53

1) An IT can't ship other people's colonists, only ore and ships.

Granted, yes, initial colonization would need to be done via interspace. But feeding would be done by the impartial Guild (for a price

Captain Maim wrote ...

2) if you have jumpgates you don't need the IT to do jack squat but sit there and smile.

"If" is the operative word here... connecting with the mystery trader in this game with the universe so huge... and then "If" the trader is offering the jumpgate is the next operative, and then "If" you have the tech... remember, the planets are limited in numbers (15/pocket) and you start with two... not all planets will able to be used, so you are looking at a race which is curtailed in growth.

Captain Maim wrote ...

3) Easiest way to (and this is purely suggestive) cut off the normal races building gates is to make them HE. But that's probably less fun..

This is a possiblility, but it doesn't sound very fun. The guild would need to police the planets (an ambassador to each planet) and stiff penalties for use.

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Sounds good

I love it when an idea comes together...

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freakyboy wrote on Thu, 04 December 2003 17:37

1. Every race must have Jumpgate technology - either via some kind of hack, or (and more likely) by using a hull with the jumpgate on board of which each race has a set number at the start and must obviously avoid losing them!!!

Like I said in the other topic: ALL ships in a fleet need to have a jumpgate, else the fleet won't jump. This means you would only have those 10 ships and nothing else ... they'll need colonizer and (MT?) cargo pods and will be lost when you colonize, or you have to make sure you can drop on a race already living in this cluster ... (the IT colonizing all planets in the universe? just a suggestion, not really serious).

Jumpgate ... I might be wrong but the idea was that each race would have"his own" pocket, develop it and defend it against intruders. However if you start with 10 jump gate ships and all IT gates are open for use in each pocket there won't be the feeling of "your own" pocket, everybody can spread around ... there will be no "isolation" to start with ...
So either the IT gates stay closed for a while (not my preference since that also means sending no scouts/warships), or the jumpgate tech/ships comes later ...
I see two options:
- each race builds it's own jumpgate freigthers. It is possible to lower the tech needed for the jumpgate, but that means a hacked exe and not using AutoHost.
- each race receives or buys jumpgate ships ... or maybe these ships are scattered over the universe and when you stumble on one it is transferred to you, but that again might happen too soon ...
Actually there is a thrid option which means making sure all races have the jumpgate required tech from the start but that's not really an option ...

Just trying to point out that starting with jumpgate ships will make it a whole different experience, you will be able to expand to any cluster you like from turn 1 ...

mch

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[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2003 12:31]

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 05 December 2003 18:24

Actually... the IT colonising every planet may not be a bad idea.... If the IT was set up as a 1% growth tri-immune race and then colonised every single last planet with 100 colonists (1kt) then That'd do the trick as far as colonising is concerned. Since PP is banned and the IT would always be set to ally you'd never be dumb enough to packet attack an IT planet, and you wouldn't bomb them either.

One could gate to a pocket, drop on a planet, build a dock, build 20 small freighters, drop on all IT planets and remove the pop again, than that pocket would be safe and nobody else can get a colony there (except by deepspace travel).

Quote:

The only danger would be if you bombed an enemy totally out of existence.

Then you would indeed have to go deepspace ...

Quote:

There is... another... problem with the IT colonising everything... AR... which is a damned shame. basically I see this game splitting 2 ways... all IT or diverse with no PP and no AR.

Yup AR wouldn't be able to join with this setup ...
So no PP, no AR, no SS, no CA (?) there goes the diversity I mentioned before! We might as well go with all IT in that case.

Quote:

Although... hacked exe also seems to be the solution to all of the problems. If it's not too difficult or demanding... I may be able to set up another version of AH with the hacked exe (if that's possible... any help Ron?) on some webspace I have knocking around - it'd be only used for this game and this game alone, but it'd be a solution. That is of course assuming that Ron wouldn't set up a "hacked" version of AH - which I wouldn't expect him to since if he does it once, then people will forever bug him to do it again... and that's just unfair on him for giving us such an excellent service for free and we suddenly pester him for more.

A second AH would be nice, and you're correct we can't expect this from Ron, he's already doing so much for the community.

Quote:

As far as "pocket" density is concerned, that's not an issue just yet. Pocket density is stumbling block 4 (or something) and we're still stuck on number 1: is this REALLY possible without an all IT game?

Pocket density has some importance but indeed not as much as the jumpgate/all IT matter ...

mch

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 05 December 2003 18:24

As far as "pocket" density is concerned, that's not an issue just yet. Pocket density is stumbling block 4 (or something) and we're still stuck on number 1: is this REALLY possible without an all IT game?

Actually there are three options, not only jumpgate/all IT, there is:
- jumpgate for all (just need to find a balance here of when available)
- all IT (again this means all pockets are instantly open for colonization)
- allow deepspace travel ...

If deepspace travel is allowed than there is no need for the jumpgate or being IT, your pop will get there ... eventually. This leans closer to the idea of one having a pocket of his own and needing to defend it against intruders coming through the IT gate, you'll have some time on your own. Also the reason why I mentioned the jump gate shouldn't be available from the start.

It also allows more skirmishing etc as been mentioned before by Sotek.

mch

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I would also appreciate the deep-space travel in conjunction with the Stargate system.

The mobility thing is the key. A deep space attack would take a long time. Assuming 800-900 lys btw pockets at warp 9 would take roughly 8-11 years. And you don't have much hope for quick reinforcement.
Add the stargate and you need to fight over its use. (and bribe the officials at the Space Guild sector HQs so they don't allow enemy fleets to access your space.

Including the extra pockets without Guild control gives the owner/s an ace in the hole. It seems that the Guild would maintain a control over the course of the game. Until it became week compared to the other races. I imagine there would be an enforced peace full of productive trading... A congress of races working together to promote "harmony," and consistently striving to improve their own lot. Until that crux of a moment arrives and the galaxy breaks into a large war...

>Its a shame SS would not be allowed. Think of those deep space attacks that you always wanted to make, but were not able to...
>Poor PP. Others think it too hard to handle not seeing that packet. Makes you think that diplomacy was useless...

[Added cool smilie thingiees...]
_________________________________________________________
Somewhere out beyond the Orion Arm, a massive obsolete fleet awaits...

[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2003 16:05]

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freakyboy wrote on Fri, 05 December 2003 12:24

Although... hacked exe also seems to be the solution to all of the problems. If it's not too difficult or demanding... I may be able to set up another version of AH with the hacked exe (if that's possible... any help Ron?) on some webspace I have knocking around - it'd be only used for this game and this game alone, but it'd be a solution. That is of course assuming that Ron wouldn't set up a "hacked" version of AH - which I wouldn't expect him to since if he does it once, then people will forever bug him to do it again... and that's just unfair on him for giving us such an excellent service for free and we suddenly pester him for more.

You're correct that if I do it for one, I'll have to do it for all. That's why I told Verker 'no' when he asked if I'd host VML/StarEd games on Stars! AutoHost.

As for a separate AH, anyone is welcome to build on the original perl code written by Thomas Tong that is available from http://library.southern.edu/stars/kn2050.htm
and I'll supply the template file that is missing from the zip, and the www upload perl script written by Alan Beall.

The current Stars! AutoHost code is not available. If I can learn Perl through building on Thomas Tong's code, then anyone else can to. Half the fun of running AutoHost in the early days was modifying the code and adding new features, and I don't plan on just giving out the current code after spending so much time on it.

Yes, the code's messy and still has a few bugs (turn gen schedule code), and yes, there in another important module I need to write or have written, and I'd like to integrate this forum with AutoHost such that you'd have to login here to download/upload your turns.

Call me paranoid, or selfish I guess

I do believe in Open Source, etc... guess I'm afraid of 'code forking', and of becoming obsolete if someone used current AH code to make something so much better that I wouldn't be useful anymore. I may have to do that someday, but not yet.

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Micha wrote on Fri, 05 December 2003 15:40

Like I said in the other topic: ALL ships in a fleet need to have a jumpgate, else the fleet won't jump. This means you would only have those 10 ships and nothing else ... they'll need colonizer and (MT?) cargo pods and will be lost when you colonize, or you have to make sure you can drop on a race already living in this cluster ... (the IT colonizing all planets in the universe? just a suggestion, not really serious).

Do'h! Of course it's possible to send through empty colonizers to meet the big ships carrying the colonists like gible mentioned ... (But you still need cargo pods on the jumpgate ships.)

mch

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I wouldn't want to take away the massive burdern *ahem* I mean joy, of being the grand AH master.

I'm not saying I don't appreciate what you're doing - we all love you for it

... but I'm glad it's not me... that's all.

If I was going to set up another AH it'd be temporary... only for 1 game and it's only need to support the 16 players max in the game. That'd be it... I'd shut it down after too. I guess I'll have a look at the code and see what I can do...


but back on subject....

Proposal: everyone has access to jumpgate ships - most likely built by the IT race - every race gets one jumpgate freighter, probably nubian loaded to the teeth with cargo pods of some form, on the turn 2420, which is also the year that the stargates open for public use and then all races get given another new one every 5 turns.

deep space travel - if we allow this, we've got to ban SS. I think we should ban it as it would take away from the game the main focus... the stargates.

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A few questions and statements here:
1) if we suspend all the players while the IT does his thing is it planned to make them recolonize or leave 100 people and have a couple freighters holding them there?

2) If no one minds not starting with any ships I can pull off an easy "Nubian Jump Gate Freighter" thing that the IT race can give out later. Current design has 6000kt storage capasity, and can move at warp 10.. (maybe that's too much.. I could tone the engine down.)

3) You don't have to ban AR, but SS... With all that time the IT race will likely spend for an AH compatable game to earn up tech.. He'll start with a huge bonus in Con and Prop.

4) If you start with a lot of players the difficulty goes up and the spacing distances go down... Course, (maybe my islands were just too big ) Anyway, I think 9 or 10 players should be the top.. IMHO.

5) Advantages of a non AH game: Easier generation turn over, (doesn't require so long for the IT to get all that tech and he can slack off and build any/any gates with just 100 people. (host then just leaves the tech for any/any down to 0 and all other rules remain intact.)

6) My original idea was just to let the IT races live 1 per pocket, and venture out into deep space on their own and claim planets like foot hold worlds. Because the whole concept required low difficulty in setup, and I thought it would be interesting to 1) have an all IT game, 2) have to breech enemy defences and setup a base to be able to get any kind of swift reenforcements in. And of course allying with an neighbor "pocket" would make merging easy. ALSO, I can move the 2nd worlds back to their HW's pocket easy. Unless you'd rather have an embasy type situation? Then I just make sure no 2 HW's are on the same place, or no more than 2 colonies per pocket.

7) With probably no more than 8 players PBEM might not be so bad. But no schedualed turn gens.

Lastly, I think that as far as setup goes, we should really try and keep it rather simple. Unless you don't mind a fairly long construction time or more than 1 person working on setting things up.

That's just what I think though.. Oh and how did you guys plan to start with 10 ships? I'd like to know the spesific idea you had in mind.

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[Updated on: Fri, 05 December 2003 22:04]

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[Updated on: Sat, 06 December 2003 17:00] by Moderator

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OH! Thanks! That's a great idea! That'll take like FOREVER off the setup time! Now it's just like... Um.. 26+19-10 years to research! I can't belive I never thought about doing that! So, in that case I can figure out how to get all the rest done.. Sheesh.. What's wrong with me.. hehe.. That should relieve a lot of what was such a pain before to do before...

(and suddenly the idea of all them ships isn't so ludicris. I can manage to get the jump gate tech avalible like year 1, that's easy. And hehe, now I know how to solve so they can start with some.. if that's the plan.)

On a slightly similar note, in another game I'm already serving a similar role that this IT player would do (I mean if he's an active player.) Though if he can't expand.... That just means he's a token player most of the time.. I guess that's fine. I'd be happy to just manage a token player like that. Maybe.. hmm.. Dunno being an active player could be extra cool too though.
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Added:
I have a super simple solution now, It does require banning AR, but it also means that the any/any gates can be made WITHOUT ANY researching at all! And can be built super fast! (I'll make an AR player do it! [yes it's AH compatable.]) Advantages: You can have SS, anyone can "loot" the ore that will pool up at the gate worlds (just use a miner and start collecting ore.) I also rigged them so if attacked they'll kick butt.. Plus they're replaceable later on! By the AR race. They'll also catch packets at warp 13.. just... cause I could. There's a pile of attributes I applied to these but that's not the point. Point is. Gible got me thinking and I came up with a really time saving way to do it all.
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Added again:
Okay I've got a functioning test game up. No IT in the whole game but I've got any/any gates on every pocket, (note, I could have if I wanted to, make the pockets smaller, and I could have done whatever I wanted with the jump transports. I ended up giving them peerless scanners just cause.) If anyone wants to see I can email them or something, (also note, I made some mistakes cause.. well let's face it, this was just a test gen and I was being semi lazy.) As an additional bonus if by some evil miracal a gate node goes down from attack, it's easily and super cheaply replaced even on AH!

[Updated on: Sat, 06 December 2003 05:13]

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