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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sat, 07 December 2002 17:45   |
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| BlueTurbit |
 | Lt. Commander
RIP
BlueTurbit died Oct. 20, 2011 |
Messages: 835
Registered: October 2002
Location: Heart of Texas | |
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| Mangar wrote on Sat, 07 December 2002 15:14 |
I am wondering why some Race-specials like steal pop with SS is considered cheating, while AR always suffer by the Kill-Starbase order. What do others think of it? Shouldn´t it be banned to use that battle order against AR?
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Kill-Starbase is a normal function of the game design, whereas steal pop with SS is not a race-special but an unintentional bug that was introduced by the (JRC3?) patch that fixed some other problems. JRC4 has fixed this bug and is available for use on AutoHost.
[Updated on: Sat, 07 December 2002 17:53]
BlueTurbit Country/RockReport message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sun, 08 December 2002 06:25 |
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Chaff is a strategy.
I believe someone elsewhere on the forum (can't remember who - sorry) stated that a cheat is a gain for zero cost. Chaff costs. Chaff costs lots! OK so a single ship is cheap but you need 1 ship per missile/torpedo fired by the enemy.
A robber barron does cost too. But free population?? You realise with the robber barron you can remove all the population bar 100 people and then re-invade? It's free invasion troops? Freighters that have no cargo but then suddenly drop almost the entire population of a planet onto a now almost empty planet? CHEAT.
Kill starbase is an actual strategy. The idea being to take out the starbase allowing bombers to slam the planet.
IMHO I believe that something along the lines of the starbase alteration made in the Viper mod would do the trick. It made starbases classed as not being starbases. That way killstarbase against AR wouldn't work. Downside - it doesn't work against anyone. A patch to make AR starbases ignored by killstarbase would level it off.
If not then I'm afraid you'll just have to do like the rest of us and establish a rule at the start of the game.
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sun, 08 December 2002 14:01 |
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well most AR players understand the rule and as such do generally one of 3 things.
1. remove virtually all population and essential ships and leave a skeleton crew on the starbase and warship. If u lose the starbase u can just re-colonise.
2. Use diplomacy to through the BB period when the starbase is most at risk.
3. Cry lots and scream it's not fair.
[Updated on: Mon, 13 January 2003 02:30] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sun, 08 December 2002 18:54 |
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| Mangar wrote on Sun, 08 December 2002 13:53 |
Yes, by rule at the beginning is a possible idea. But the main idea behind the thread was to get some ideas of different players about it.
And I see that everyone else seem to have no problem with that order.
Thx @ all
Mangar
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And you also have to realize that even *without* the "kill starbase" order in effect the starbase often will buy a missile salvo early on in a battle.
The starbase is a single ship token; no shield stacking, and containing a decent resource/mineral cost relative to its defensive value. It's an attractive target regardless of the fact that there are also specific orders for hunting it.
- Kurt
Time flies like an arrow.
Fruit flies like a banana.
- Groucho MarxReport message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Mon, 09 December 2002 13:34 |
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Battle attractiveness calculator. Don't leave home without it. You can get it from Autohosts downloads page too.
All you have to do is make sure that the starbase isn't more attractive than your standard battleships. That way the base doesn't get popped at by the enemy unless they have kill starbase orders.
I think multiple starbases is a good idea. Stack and stacks of them.
Downside is AR and their population. As someone trying to master AR (is such a thing possible?) I wouldn't complain about having a pop of several billion people living on several death stars.
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Tue, 10 December 2002 19:01 |
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RPS loop: Rock Paper Scissors loop. It means that each type of ship has an advantage against another type. It promotes combined arms. It is for this exact reason that I think that chaff should be allowed.
(I hope that wasn't a rhetorical question Apelord)
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Thu, 12 December 2002 14:07 |
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Agreed. Resource for resource (and assuming competent design)
Missile beats beam alone.
beam alone beats chaff beam.
Chaff beam beats Missile.
tada!!! I'm a big boy and I understand.
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Fri, 13 December 2002 03:17 |
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Without chaff....
Game degenerates into who has the biggest missile ship fleet in one sense. But in another sense it breaks down to who fires first. It becomes a balance between more missiles and more Nexi.
Each fleet will reach a point of whoever fires will destroy the other fleet. If you have less ships than them you need more missiles. BUT you still have to have a higher initiative.
Overall victory is determined by either....
1. Which race is AR (mineral fountain)
2. Which race has GD (unlimited minerals)
3. Which race runs out of minerals first.
minerals, minerals, minerals.
Was I close Apelord?
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Fri, 13 December 2002 22:51 |
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 Apelord |
 | Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 99
Registered: November 2002 | |
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You got it. Game devolves into the biggest stack of missile ships and once that stack gets destroyed the victor becomes unstoppoable since the loser typically doesn't have near enough iron left to rebuild, let alone counter the new ships the victor gets to build from the spoils of the big battle.
Incidentally this also weights the game towards CA's (more planets=more minerals) IT's and WM's. In a game where AR's are required to build iron hungry missile ships AND iron hungry remote miners, the fountain isn't as useful as in a more balanced setting.
[Updated on: Fri, 13 December 2002 22:53]
"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George PattonReport message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sat, 14 December 2002 10:40 |
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| Apelord |
| Master Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 99
Registered: November 2002 | |
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ZZZor problem with your design: It isn't gateable. Build those and you'll get trounced by someone whose design can be consolidated quickly.
Between Omega's and Armageddons it is a bit of a toss up. Armageddons have longer range and more damage.
Omega's are lighter, have higher initiative.
Haven't ran the numbers to see which is more cost effective in a while but the cost effectiveness is also a function of your targets sheilding.
With 12+ comps the base accuracy isn't much of an issue. Especially if you are using Nexi.
[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2002 10:50]
"The object of war is not to die
for your country but to make
the other bastard die for his" -George PattonReport message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sat, 14 December 2002 10:44 |
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I know the accuracy means very little when you got that many Nexi.
But then again it does matter. 12 nexi vs 12 jammer 50's from an IS race and suddenly you're down to base accuracy again - omega wins clearly. And I dont think the range makes any difference with these ships because they don't have any armour so they aren't THAT heavy (still damned heavy like) but they are quick enough to close that gap. Do ships not start at range 7 from each other? player a moves, player b moves then higher initiative fires yes?
[Updated on: Mon, 13 January 2003 02:33] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: AR and Kill Starbase |
Sat, 14 December 2002 10:53 |
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Back on topic. I think that sometimes AR with kill star base feels cheap. However, with careful scanning and lots of freighters, and since you can just leave weapons off've starbases in end game, it isn't too bad. Bad at Home world though, very bad.
[Updated on: Sat, 14 December 2002 10:54]
Email me as ----jeffimix@----yahoo.com----
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AR and Kill Starbase
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Ummm, sure! 
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