I find little satisfaction puttering around the galaxy in the early years trying to conquer my immediate neighbors with Kia frigates, Daewoo destroyers, and Volkswagon cruisers. I have expensive tastes - I like those beautiful Lamborghini beamers and Rolls Royce armageddons of the nubian class. I can settle for the Lexus battleships, I guess, but I couldn't care less about bazooka phaser frigates. I play the entire game for the nubian era, as that when I find a game most enjoyable. When I get there, I want the bestest and I want the mostest. Of course, I don't want to do this forever. I avoid games set in large (or bigger) galaxies.

It seems like I'm in the minority, though. People often play -f races and complain about games where everyone joins hands and sings Kumbaya until nubians. Maybe it just makes more sense in the medium and smaller galaxies. Dummy that I am, I can only guess. These are probably the same people IMO, that speak in glowing terms on the concept of slowing a game down, a concept which seems completely alien to me. I'd rather start in a game with beginning tech levels of 16 so we could hurry up and get to the good stuff.

My biggest problem while designing a race is balancing long-term advantages with immediate advantages. My favorite race is the old tri-immune HE. Obviously, this is the best race to provide all of the best toys that I want in the endgame - the problem is getting there. It's unlikely to last long at all in a game filled with HG and -f races, which are by far the most popular economic models. Even HP's seem reliant upon a bit of luck in positioning and/or the kindness and/or procrastination tendencies of their neighbors, although I confess to no real personal experience with HP's and I draw my conclusion merely from what I've read in this forum.

I have surrendered my beloved tri-immune HE because I'm tired of people making fun of me. My compromise has moved me into the HG category, but you know, the truth is that I really suck at it. I know the reason - I'm not balancing the quick-start/long-term issue. I always sacrifice the immediate in favor of the eventual long-term. In everything. Compromising the eventual for the immediate is something I'm finding much harder to accept than the mere abandonment of my HE.

IFE? Forget that. It costs a lot, and if I can just get to tech 9 in propulsion I'll never want that FM engine again anyways. I know it's nice, but you can't have everything.

NRSE? Forget that too! Man, it doesn't give enough points, and I'll be stuck with expensive engines through the whole game! Besides, if I do that I'm going to really need IFE, and I'm not going there. Next thing ya know I'll be blowing off propulsion research and then thinking more and more about gravity immunity, and where's THOSE points going to come from?

NAS? Maybe I could take that, but geez, if I can get my electronics up to 23 I'll have longer scanning range AND penetrating scanners - let's try a little harder to find some points elsewhere.

I know, I'll take LSP - that's lots of points and I'll soon get over it, after all, I have this obscene growth rate of 18. Someday I oughta try and work out the math to see what the accumulated exponential effect this has on my race is, but... I'm the Zoid.

Still a little short on RW points, but I gotta keep the 12/9/16 on factories, that's like, mandatory on the HG just like the 18+ growth rate, isn't it? Mines are already a bit low with 10/3/13 settings (I miss my HE with 25/2/25 settings) so there's no points to be gained there, I've already milked that to the bone - Hope nobody finds out. And I have OBRM.

I'm NOT taking cheap engines for nothing! No way! How about if I just chop off one leg and hobble around the galaxy with a crutch! Madness. Man, I can't even put up with 10 years of that nonsense in a testbed!

I could take more expensive research fields, but gosh-darn, biotech is already at +75% (that was easy) and electronics too (and that was VERY hard). I don't want any more expensive techs, because I'm going

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zoid wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 10:17

I find little satisfaction puttering around the galaxy in the early years trying to conquer my immediate neighbors with Kia frigates, Daewoo destroyers, and Volkswagon cruisers.

I had my coke coming out of my nose by the time I got to the Volkswagon cruiser!

But a very interesting post!
I'll put in a few quick replies if you're interested.

Quote:

I know, I'll take LSP - that's lots of points and I'll soon get over it, after all, I have this obscene growth rate of 18. Someday I oughta try and work out the math to see what the accumulated exponential effect this has on my race is, but... I'm the Zoid.

You won't be that far behind with LSP. And the good news is you don't have to do the math, somebody already did that for you, I remember somebody posting it on the rgcs, but can't remember the exact numbers, something like lagging one year behind but catching up in just a few years ... I'll see if I can find it later (still have to look up some other stuff too ...)

Quote:

Still a little short on RW points, but I gotta keep the 12/9/16 on factories, that's like, mandatory on the HG just like the 18+ growth rate, isn't it? Mines are already a bit low with 10/3/13 settings (I miss my HE with 25/2/25 settings) so there's no points to be gained there, I've already milked that to the bone - Hope nobody finds out. And I have OBRM.

To make it even more difficult for you: keep the numbers of mines and factories the same so with 12/9/16 you're better of with 10/3/16 ...

Quote:

I don't want any more expensive techs, because I'm going to be doing a LOT of research over the years, and I can't depend on friends - I might not get any because my diplomacy sucks just like everything else, and even if I do, he's going to have +75% in everything except weapons so that'll be no help, and I can't go +75% in weapons coz people will laugh at me when they find out.

Found myself in that situation several times, both me and my ally having +75% in all except weap. So the last two games I played I had weap +75% ... of course you need diplomacy ... but yours doesn't suck as hard a you think, just throw some huge mass packets to soften them and then promise them to be friends to the end, worked on me!

regards,
mch

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To make it easy just take JOAT as first try for HG.

Take it one-immune, gravity immune, it will speed your breeders up greatly. Just do not forget to terra them once theres 200 resources at planet.
1 in 8 is wide enough, at energy and weapons 10 it will be 1 in 3 planets habitable and with 16 in energy and weapons it is 1 in 2. Just colonize all the reds and yellows that will be greens one day as soon you have colonized all the greens. 18% is good enough growth to get all your empire colonized by 2435.

Take IFE and NRSE so you can live with your propulsion 3 until battleships and with propulsion 12 long time after that.

Take OBRM, no need for these remote miners.
Take NAS, JOAT just has to take it always.
Take RS, it will give you immediate effect since your shielded early warships are half better and it will give you long term effect because your shielded beamer nubians are very hard to beat without being seriously outnumbered.

Econ like 12/9/15 less germ and 10/3/16 is quick enough. That leaves you with energy, weapons and construction normal and rest of them expensive.

If you cannot never get 35k by 2450 in tiny dense alone with that race you probably need to revisit your strategies.

You can also try QS in HE style...
For example ISB, NRSE, OBRM, NAS, RS
Gravity and Radiation immune, Temp like -140 to 100 Virtually All. 7% growth.
Econ take quick ... 15/8/18, less germ, 10/3/22.
Leaves points for 3 cheap fields. It can start to fight rather early. *RATHER* early. It can sure fend off that -f. How sounds Jihad at 2435? Lot of mini-freightering there but quite fun to play.

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I'm coming to the conclusion that people don't talk with each other enough, especially in games without public player scores. This makes it possible for those QS HGs or -f races to gobble up slower races with not many people being the wiser. Even that all-tech-expensive-except-weapons monster starter will have trouble if several people realize what he's doing and join together to stop him.

Diplomacy

I haven't played in that many games yet, but I've also not seen the early coalition to contain a hyper-growth race much either. It's always "give me a few more turns to research those nifty Epsilon torpedos" or somesuch.

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Zoid,

The next time that SuperXdude offers up an AFON start game....RUN don't walk to sign up for it. Consider your lowly 4% HE with 2.3 Million starting pop. Oh, No, It's Much, Much better than that Truzzzzzzt Me. It's waaaay cool.

ps: (wanna duel 4% HEs sometime?)

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Hetzer wrote on Fri, 27 June 2003 15:31

ps: (wanna duel 4% HEs sometime?)

Grrrr, that's so cruel of you when you know I'm trying to kick the habit!

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HG. It's not about making compromises so much as it is about having FUN! Diplomacy is not about making friends. It's about influencing people, uh, sentient beings. When you get your factories up to 12/9/16 by increasing all your research costs (except weapons), you are not increasing research costs. You are increasing your economic power, making later research costs more affordable because by the time you need those higher techs, you will own more planets than the others. Assuming you did it all right, of course.

So, OK, it's not about having FUN. It's about having more MONEY! It's about getting more, quicker than the others. It's about "getting there first with the most men.", which the HG is usually quite able to accomplish.

It's also about micro-management and proper timing, although the negative side is seldom discussed. With several HG's in a game, it becomes a contest over who is the best at micro-managing their empire, nursing it along to a higher growth rate, and launching that first, critical, deadly attack.

So, OK, it's not about making money, it's about proper timing ...



The Crusader

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Good point. Excellent point! And it very succintly describes the HG in a nutshell.

But when you get into a game with 7 other HG's, all of good quality, all capable of growing fast and making good, quality fighting ships...

Well ... then it is about the D word.

Say it quietly ... diplomacy.

Because if you start indisciminately killing folks in a game with other capable races, you are going to find yourself fighting alone against a rather formidable coalition. Count on it!

But any game comes down to one single point, IMHO. It comes down to race design, and then playing the game to fit the game design. All that other junk I was rambling about, they're all means to an end. Right? At the end of the day, we all want to be the biggest, baddest race in the galaxy. (Although, I often will settle for surviving )

I personally like games with PPS turned off. I like 'em because I like playing the diplomatic card heavily. It's hard to develop a coalition against an aggressive JoAT race when everyone can easily see that your fast-growing WM race is ranked #1 by the game. At that point, it just don't matter how nicely you are treating everyone. They won't trust you! And most likely for good reason.

Most annoying.

There are a couple of ways to start. You can decide what kind of game you want to be in and design to fit that, or you can find a game you like the sound of and try to design a race that will do well within the parameters the host has defined.

You can also design a race you want to try, and then host your own game to fit the race.

But it all comes down to the term coined in the Strategy Guide - whole game strategy. And I believe that this is the real point to Zoid's post. It's not that he doesn't like HG, he is having a problem "designing" his HG. (Unless I've misunderstood his rant) The tri-immune HE is still a deadly race when played to it's full potential, but like any race design it has weaknesses that you learn to play around. You play to emphasize your strengths while trying to mask your weaknesses. I've never played the tri-immune HE before, so I do not know its weaknesses. All my HG and HP races have some particular weaknesses that I must deal with in PBEM games, and I typically mask them most effectively through diplomacy and intelligence (not my own, but in the military sense of the word).

Zoid's rant leaves me to believe that he wants a HG race design that does not have any "weaknesses" for him to deal with. He wants to design an HG that will have 30k+ resources by 2450 with cheap tech research and factory settings of 12/9/16 with mine settings of 12/3/18 while retaining the ability to colonize virtually anywhere. I want all that, too. Somehow, I can't seem to find the RW for it though. Neither can Zoid. I can sympathize. I do not have an answer for him.

But I'm stating the obvious again, aren't I. Forgive me. I do ramble on.

My best advice for Zoid on his particular problem is to, and I know I'm about to get picked on for JC worship again, read an old NG post of Jason Cawley's about designing HG races. It was a great help to me. He almost formulized it, so to speak. His point was that any race can be designed to be a HG-style race (he did not include the AR PRT, I don't believe), although there are obviously some more dangerous than others. Some become economic "monsters" quite easily. Others do not, but they are "competitive" enough to be able to use their particular PRT strengths that they could take a game, if played to those strengths. JC's posts on race design are on my home system hard drive, and they are my race design "bible", you could say. I stray from it quite often attempting to break the standards that have been set in race design; but more often than not my straying does not result in my finding any great, hidden design surprises. It just results in a weak, compromised design.

I'll get back to you on the NG thread. I don't have it at the moment.
The Crusade

[Updated on: Mon, 30 June 2003 13:21]

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The NG thread in question is titled
Re: HG articles? (was: SS design

I located it by using a search phrase of "design cycle sincerely jason"

I highly recommend that you read the entire thread, if for no other reason than to learn all about "Godwin's Law".

If that doesn't help you with HG race design, I don't know what else I can do.

Respectfully, and loving the new smily,
The Crusader

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Crusader wrote on Mon, 30 June 2003 18:17

"Say it quietly ... diplomacy. Because if you start indisciminately killing folks"

Whats wrong with indescriminate killing? A little slaughter and wanton genocide puts an amazing shine on a morning, a shine only rivaled by waking up next to a nyphomaniac supermodel. (I wish!)

Anyway, I apologise in advance for what is about to be a blatant thread hijacking, but while I have so much collected knowledge on HG races and strategies in one place I'd like some advice.

I'v never really got on with HG No! PUT THAT BAT DOWN! I'm not slagging them off.
I'v just always prefered the idea of HP.
However I seem to get my butt whipped by f**king hordes of the little HE critters swarming over the planets I was trying to remote mine like a dirty plague spreading accross the stars!

What are the weaknesses of HG from my point of view?

I'v only recently got into stars! and am kind of a newbie so advice on protecting my HP Joat race from hordes of intergalactic tri-immune cockroaches would be much appreciated provided it doesn't include the words "Don't use HP"
regards
-T

[Updated on: Thu, 03 July 2003 05:55]

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Abaddon wrote on Thu, 03 July 2003 04:53

Whats wrong with indescriminate killing? <snip> What are the weaknesses of HG from my point of view?

There is absolutely nothing wrong with indiscriminate killing, just make sure that you can handle the backlash.

The weaknesses of the HG, generally speaking, is the opposite of those possessed by the HP, and I'm not trying to be flippant. It just comes natural.

The HG is strong on the early game because of ramp-up speed. The goal is to get the resources up very quickly (not as quick as the quick-start, but quick nevertheless). The long-range goal is to use this ability to ramp-up resources quickly into a fairly early advantage to allow expansion, by war and intimidation, and grab more space than is "rightfully" yours.

Anything that you can do to stop or slow down this expansion will "hurt" the HG. As an HP, if you can successfully keep your HG neighber from taking more space than you get, then you will without a doubt generate more resources per controlled space - eventually. So, obviously, the weaknesses of the HG become apparent just when the HP is becoming dominant - in the late-middle and end game periods.

Think of HG races as sprinters. HP races are long-distance runners. If an HP can survive early and stay fairly competitive during the early and early-middle game periods, then the HG races will falter and fall beneath the increasing weight of the HP juggernaut.

In theory ...

And remember, I'm comparing "classic" versions of these race types. IMO, you look for a classic HG to start a war just simply when it looks convenient. This could be as early as 2430 (perhaps even earlier), up through the 2450's. An HG that is not in a fully involved war of conquest by 2460 stands a good chance of falling - again, generally speaking and in my opinion.

But it is entirely possible, by making sacrifices here and there, to create an HG with endurance built-in. Nowhere as powerful as an HP race, but near enough to be a handfull. This could really ruin your day as an HP, especially if he has helpful partners.

But we are sticking with "classic" designs to help keep the conversation simple. OK?

So, in your case, it is not so much knowing the HG weaknesses. They are built-in, so to speak, and the HP is designed to pretty much take natural advantage of them. HGs and HPs are "natural" enemies. Your task is determining just how you are going to survive the period of HG ascendancy long enough to become a force in your own time. The years from around 2465 and beyond, to state it simply.

You have limited options to work with here, I'm afraid. And your best bet is to try to combine them into a strategy that will rely on just a spot of good luck on your part.
A.) Find a HG to partner with during your early, vulnerable period. Be careful! If your partner figures out that you are HP, he may decide you are too tasty a morsel with too much potential to just leave alone or help out.
B.) Use diplomacy to keep yourself out of early wars. Try to not come across as a "peacenik". A good HG player is looking for "peaceniks" in his universe. Typically, these are almost always HP players trying to survive. Don't throw out clues that might get you killed. You will find that HP players try to form coalitions, mutual defense pacts, and other such "friendly" tactics in the early game. HGs, on the other hand, tend to avoid long-term alliances so long as survival is not threatened. They want to keep their options open until they have their "prey" singled out of the "herd".
C.) Learn to pray - at least until 2465 or so.

In a universe full of HG, -f and QS races, playing the HP can be treacherous. Almost as treacherous as giving advice on this forum.

Well, this advice and a quarter will buy you a phone call, if you can get someone to loan you a dime.

Here's hoping it might help. Feel free to ask me to clarify anything th

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Crusader wrote on Thu, 03 July 2003 18:39

C.) Learn to pray - at least until 2465 or so.

I hate religeon. But your advice was really sound.... thanx mate. Although I think I'v goofed in one way....

I am in the middle of a couple of MP games that I'v just started... Know everyone will know I am an HP struggling to survive!

[Updated on: Fri, 04 July 2003 05:25]

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Abaddon wrote on Fri, 04 July 2003 04:24

I hate religeon.

Well, I'm not fond of religion either. However, I am a Christian. "Technically", Christians are not religionists. (Is that a word?) Praying is not a religious act, if done correctly. It's just talking to God. But, I'm not here to get into this. I'm here to talk about Stars!

If you like, on the other hand, I'll be glad to discuss the matter in a PM if you would like. I doubt either of us will convince the other of anything, but you might like to hear my story. It's a hoot. A bit of Real Life mixed with the Twilight Zone - but you had to be there.

Yeah, you gotta be real careful with your conversations on this forum, or any public forum for that matter. Nor are you the first to say a bit more in public than was really necessary. Don't worry about it. Just charm the socks off of 'em for a spell. With a name like Abaddon, who's going to suspect you of meaning any harm?

Whoops! Forgot my sig.

The Crusader

[Updated on: Fri, 04 July 2003 12:00]

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Well we have 2 people with the names "Crusader" and "Abaddon" who say they arnt into religion - well you may not be pious but I would say you both find religion interesting (much like I do, Atheist myself but facinated by the whole thing - still not really a Stars subject)

Back on post "HP how to last" - choosing a hab range others dont use (say 70-90% grav, 70-90% temp and 10-30% rad) can often help you live long enough to reach the later stages if only because some players forget to re-scan planets that they dont have much use for. This means you can (sometimes) get the 5-10 years required to set up a new colony.
If allied wins are allowed intercolonising with a -f race is a very good way to go. They are strong when you are weak, you are strong when they are weak - they have loads of G and you need it (you can tech trade to them towards the end when they cant really afford to research). Its just a matter of trusting the player - still -f players are all known for their pacifist and laid back outlook thats why they chose to play -f .

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OK... here's my

The best way that I've found to getting the balance between early growth and end game goodies (at least in the way that Zoid was talking about originally) is to decide HOW you are going to start early.

If you plan on taking PLANETS before anyone else does then you NEED IFE. If planets are your initial goal then get as many as you can, wide (ish) habs and reasonable growth (17%) are your best bets.

If you plan on taking PLANETS after someone else does then may I recommend WM or IS... possibly SD. Get some cheap weapons tech and start slapping out frigate hordes... this may require CE just to cut costs. Only choose this option if you are confident that your neighbours wont have the same idea... or if they do you'll have the better skills.
This works best with lots of HP's about.

If you plan on taking SPACE and then colonising later then you have 3 options...
1. colonise as far flung as you can manage then colonise the planets you missed later.
2. Have good scanners to start (JOAT, elec starts at 3, SS, or something like that) and meet your neighbours as far away from your HW as possible and get some borders as soon as possible.
3. Minefields (IS or SD) - lay lots as far away from your HW as possible.
This option works best in a HG flooded galaxy with SD.

Planets vs Space is the first decision to make. This will decide on a few key PRT's / LRT's / Cheap techs.


Next choice is what you want from these planets...

1. quick resources - then it's -F and a high growth rate or solid factory settings.
2. territory - bugger the factories... just -F here then.
3. grounds from which to stage an assault - ISB or IT is seems.

That should have your PRT sorted out by now... if it doesn't then hey presto here comes the best question...
What toys do you want to play with end game?
1. warp 16 mass packets? PP
2. Big bad ass warships? WM
3. Stargates? IT
etc......

Once you have your race set up to get what you want out of those planets near by... then you can look at what to do with those end game goodies.


The 4 or 3% HE is the AOL of stars. Sure it looks good and sounds good, it even works in theory. But once you get past "basic" stars skills then you start to realise how much the HE prt holds you back.

That last comment wasn't an attack on HE users (but it was an attack on AOL) ... it is a difficult race to play that requires a high degree of skill to play properly. It's just so powerful against NEW players and so weak against ADVANCED players. If you don't believe me chuck in your best HE into a newbie game and the same race into an advanced game... see what happens.

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Well, Freakyboy, it's more like a quarter's worth if'n you ask me. And I agree whole-heartedly with what you said about the ol' tri-immune HE.

1. It's easy to form a coalition agin 'em.
2. It's fairly easy to slow 'em down when they don't wanna be.
3. It's fairly easy to kill 'em. Even when I was using a slow HP SS race. But I out-finessed 'em, I did! Plus he made some major mistakes that I quickly took advantage of before he could recover.

Dis game! She is so much fun!

Kind Regards,
The Crusader

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Here's an opt out for you, zoid!

Play in "Cute lil fluffy kittens, in a box" (see new game posts)

I'm setting up a HP ONLY game, doing for HP what RWIAB did for -f. I am restricting factories to 15/x/25 (or 13/x/17 , subject to a poll on the thread)

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