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| Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Mon, 30 June 2003 10:35  |
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 Nexus One |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 75
Registered: December 2002
Location: Szczecin, Poland | |
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Hello,
Posted this question in IS section, but no reply in the last couple of days. As it is somewhat effort taking task to make a proper testbed for this, I'd like to check if maybe somebody knows (already checked) what TD guts really are.
In advance, thanks for you help.
Feliks
*******
Hello,
I was reading this {New Tachyon Detectors (TD) Question from IS} thread as well as another Tachyon Detectors related, but can't really figure out the guts of it.
Say enemy fleet is 35% cloaked and my ship is equipped with 3 Tachy giving 91% 'anti-cloak-effectiveness' or 9% reduction.
Question: reduction means:
A) 35% * 0,91 ~= 32% cloaking, so my fleet's (having TDs) scanners are 68% effective against the enemy's fleet
B) 35% - 9% = 26% cloaking, so my fleet's (having TDs) scanners are 74% effective against the enemy's fleet
With higher cloaking percentage, the difference in 2 methods is less, but still I am curious what are the real guts of TD.
Regards,
Feliks the curious
********
Check out my new program S!RP (test version)!
ftp://library.southern.edu/starsreportsprocessor.zip
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Mon, 30 June 2003 15:17  |
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| Crusader |
 | Officer Cadet 2nd Year |
Messages: 233
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dixie Land | |
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Originally posted by James McClave way back in 1999
Hmmm. I thought I read somewhere that the formula for determining the
effectiveness of tachyon detectors was to multiply cloaking by
.95^(sqrt(number_of_detectors)). Thus, one detector reduces cloaking to 95% of
the original value, two to 93%, three to 91%, thirty-six to 74%, 180 to 50%,
etc.
Sounds like they're saying the formula is .95^(number_of_detectors). (Because
.95^2 is .9025, while .95^sqrt(2) is .93something.)
Being dedicated to the truth, and to vindicating myself, I ran a testbed. I
maxed out an IS race, and made a nubian. I threw on one scanner, and then
began to put on tachyon detectors. I was expecting to have to do some annoying
MM to determine with an enemy 98% cloaked ship to determine the ranges, but, lo
and behold, the ship design pane tells you what your detectors reduce enemy
cloak to! It was child's play to collect data. 
Detectors/Percentage:
1 : 95%
2 : 93%
3 : 91%
6 : 88%
9 : 86%
12: 84%
15: 82%
18: 81%
21: 81%
24: 81% Apparently, the tachyons max out at 81%.
Now, to see whether it's the highest number of detectors on a single ship, or
the total detectors in a fleet, I ran another test
I designed a frigate with 3 detectors and a scanner. I built five of these,
and I grouped them.
I had the other race in this testbed build a 98% cloaked nub.
The frigates could not spot the cloaked nub 60 ly away in deep space with a
single peerless scanner, with which they should have if the detectors combined
in a fleet. The frigates did detect the nub at 30 ly, which is consistent with
91% effective tachyon detectors. In other words, the detectors do not combine
on a fleet.
Thank you for bearing with my ramblings
And I can pretty much state that my game findings are consistant with these results, for what it's worth. Red text is the formula used for tachyon detectors.
Respectfully,
The Crusader 
[Updated on: Wed, 06 August 2003 08:19] by Moderator
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of COLORS |
Mon, 30 June 2003 18:08 |
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| Micha | 
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Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002
Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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| BlueTurbit wrote on Mon, 30 June 2003 22:52 |
I used to think GM stands for General Motors, but I'm beginning to believe it stands for Griping Micha.
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... griping? Dictionary is no help here ... 
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 Not! Unreadable, just lighter, that's all.
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Well, ok very hard to read, not without getting a headache.  
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I use default view also. Could this be another Netscape problem?
Another option is to set your browser options to ignore web page colors. Then everything is readable for you, and without colors.
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Nah, I like colors.
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You can also hold left mouse button and drag to highlight the difficult text.
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Try it, won't work with this particular blue, even worse readable!
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But let us not deprive the use of colors here based on different users settings on different computers. If you want black and white stick to newspaper groups.  
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'Paper' what's that?
mch
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Tue, 01 July 2003 12:21 |
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| Marduk |
 | Ensign |
Messages: 345
Registered: January 2003
Location: Dayton, OH | |
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The effectiveness is based on the highest number of TDs in a single ship in the fleet, and the best scanners on a single ship in the fleet. Or two ships, possibly, one for normal scanning and one for pen scans.
I haven't bothered to check the formula or the math involved since I came up with my design, but I ended up with a galleon that has 10 TDs and 2 Eagle Eye Scanners. It's scanner range is listed as 796/0/85%, and I've seen 98% cloaked ships at a range of over 100 light-years.
It is possible that I can see them farther out, but I've been paying less attention to anything that far beyond my borders due to time constraints. I'll take a look sometime and let you know if I spot fully-cloaked ships farther out.
"First Law of Biology - If a child looks like his father, that's Heredity. If he looks like a neighbor, that's Environment."
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Mon, 28 July 2003 16:55 |
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At max tech, anyone can make 98% cloaked fleets, so TD's are useful against any prt. SS should have won by then anyway, with their 98% cloaked rogues and battleships.
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Mon, 29 March 2004 05:30 |
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Somebody wasn't doing the math.
21 TD's on one ship is useless. The absolute maximum amount of TD's that will have an effect to reduce cloaking is 17. This reduces enemy cloaking to 81% efficiency.
Stars uses the following formula to calculate cloaking reduction from TD's:
95% ^ (SQRT(#_of detectors)). Increasing the number of detectors past 17 has no effect due to the cap on TD efficiency reduction. To make this simple, if you have 9 TD's (the square root of 9 is 3), reduction in cloaking is calculated as:
0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 = 0.857375 reduction in cloaking (rounded to 86% cloaking effectiveness). If the cloaked ship was 98% cloaked, its cloaking now is 98% x 86% = 84.28% (84% cloaked). With a 100ly scanner, you will be able to see the ship 16 ly away (instead of only 2 ly away). A 500 ly scanner will see the ship 80 ly away instead of 10 ly away.
So, lets take a look at the next easy example; 16 TD's (square root is 4)
0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 x 0.95 = 0.81450625 which rounds to 0.82 (82% cloak effectiveness). Cloaking on a 98% cloaked ship is now 0.98 x 0.82 = 0.8036. The 98% cloaked ship is now only 80% cloaked.
The next major value would be 25 TD's. However, (anybody want to take a guess as to what 0.95 ^5 is?) No... Don't worry, I'll tell you: its 0.7737809375. That means a 98% cloaked ship now has 77% cloak efficiency. 98% x 77% = 0.7546 (76% rounded). With 25 TD's, a 98% cloaked ship SHOULD now only be 76% cloaked. However, just as Stars! caps cloaking to a maximum of 98%, it also caps TD cloaking reduction to 81% effectiveness of cloaks. Therefore, 17 TD's is the absolute usable maximum.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Mon, 29 March 2004 05:31]
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Wed, 31 March 2004 00:21 |
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Yep you've got it.
Generally, due to the simple fact that there aren't many hulls that have a proliferation of general and/or elec slots AND those hulls usually also have a scanner slot, you may as well put the scanner on the TD ship. Before Nubians, the best hull for the TD is the galleon.
Ptolemy
[Updated on: Wed, 31 March 2004 00:21]
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Wed, 31 March 2004 02:28 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Ptolemy wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 07:21 |
Generally, due to the simple fact that there aren't many hulls that have a proliferation of general and/or elec slots AND those hulls usually also have a scanner slot, you may as well put the scanner on the TD ship. Before Nubians, the best hull for the TD is the galleon.
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When playing an IS I've sold quite a number if TD FFs: 3TDs (cloak decrease 91%), 2 Eagle scanners. Quite an effective ship against anything cloaked below 95%, and some players used a lot of such designs. In late game I designed a multi-purpose Nub that had to replace my speed-bump minelayers, partially also normal layers, and had to serve as an anti-cloaker. The design was (in slots): 3 normal minelayers, 2 speed-bump minelayers, 3 TD, 1 Eagle scanner, 1 CPS, 1 OT, 1 MegaD, Galaxy scoop engine, with retreat orders. It was able to escape a standard AMP nub, to kill lighter skirmishers and to spot an 98% cloaked ship about 120 LY far. I've produced about 70 of them, for each of my planets, and to support attacking fleets as well. A nice design, will build them again.
BR, Iztok
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Wed, 31 March 2004 10:51 |
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| LEit |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003
Location: CT | |
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I like to cloak my nubian tachyon ships as well: So they tend to have 4 slots cloaks, 5 slots TDs, 1 shield, 1 OT/jet, and 1 scanner. They're not as multi-purpose as the other design, but I can see without being seen myself. In my last game I had a multipurpose ship as well, but it had cloaks too, so I could lay mine fields at the front lines (well I could have execpt I was fighting 2 other IS races, and they had tachyons too - I'd mainly designed the ship for a future enemy who was a WM not allied to the IS's).
However, even with tachyons cloaking helps while you are in orbit of a world. Even with tachyons, you have to get very close (50ly or so) to a world to spot a 98% cloaked fleet. So I was able to put up mine fields on some worlds in no mans land that I probably couldn't have if the ships were not cloaked.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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| Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of |
Wed, 31 March 2004 15:36 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| LEit wrote on Wed, 31 March 2004 17:51 |
I like to cloak my nubian tachyon ships as well...
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I would too, but in that game I didn't want to invest in cloaking, because the second IS already fielded an all_scanner+TD nub and was selling it to his friends (my enemies).
BR, Iztok
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Re: Tachyon Detectors - the guts of COLORS
