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Beginner Rematch Thu, 25 May 2017 12:55 Go to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 439
Registered: May 2009
The beginner game that we started a short while ago looks like it is ending, so lets start another one.

There has been some discussion in the bar about a new game for beginners, so I thought I would start one.

Players must be beginners, less than 3 games against humans. If we can't get enough players with this restriction, we will allow more experienced players with a handicap.

Game settings are as follows:

- Distant players position
- AccBBS
- random events on

Standard cheat disclaimer, which means that the following cheats are allowed:

- chaff
- split fleet dodge
- merge fleets after gating
- Mine damage dodge

- CA Banned, all other races are ok.

Turns would be MTWTF until 2430 or someone requests a slow down. From there they would be MWF.

AR is allowed to build 8 cheap colonizers before 2430.
PPS is off.
Only one ally shall be set to friend, all others set to enemy.
Battle orders shall be set to "attack who = enemy."
Technology may be exchanged only with an ally.
Experienced players shall not ally with each other until at least 24(30?)
Number of players is anywhere from 4 - 16. The more players sign up, the larger the universe. We will aim for about 30 planets per player. Host is not playing.

The game ends with a vote for the winner. 2/3 majority is required to declare a winner.

I had a suggestion for this game:

Quote:
might recommend host-forced random pairs at the start of the game. You can do that by moving planets around


This is an option, or we can go with a vanilla game.

If we need to add experienced players to this game so we have enough to play, the experienced players must set at least 150 points to defenses.






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Re: Beginner Rematch Thu, 25 May 2017 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1004
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
ManicLurch wrote on Thu, 25 May 2017 18:55
If we need to add experienced players to this game so we have enough to play, the experienced players must set at least 150 points to defenses.

Experienced players shall not ally with each other until at least 24(30?)


ManicLurch, if you don't mind some suggestions:

Beginners:
# may not play AR or PP

Experienced players:
# 150pts to defenses
# may not play JoaT, SD, CA (ccmaster may not play HE, Altruist not IT)
# must set weapons and construction to expensive
# may only ally with another experienced player from on 2430

Small explanation:
Forbidding JoaT for experienced is the easiest way, forbidding SD because in the hands of an experienced is too difficult for beginners to overcome.
Setting weapons and construction to expensive gives an incredible incitement for experienced to ally up with beginners and it worked great in the last beginner game.
To allow experienced to ally up with each other is a smart idea because otherwise they might end up with no ally at all. Allowing it only from on 2430 means that they can start tech exchange quite much later which is good.
I played in the last beginner game and the restrictions for experienced are quite severe, so as a hint for experienced players: get yourself a newbie as an ally or prepare to loose *grin

And feel free to tune down the handicaps for players of intermediate experience:
# may not play JoaT, SD, CA
# must set weapons and construction to expensive


[Updated on: Thu, 25 May 2017 15:06]

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Re: Beginner Rematch Thu, 25 May 2017 16:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 439
Registered: May 2009
Quote:
ManicLurch, if you don't mind some suggestions: ...


All good suggestions. We will add those to the rules.

I like the idea of W and Con expensive giving an incentive to ally with a beginner. That will really force experienced players to not ally with each other, unless there are no alternatives.

If there is a mix of beginners and experienced players, I will also do my best to make sure that each beginner has an opportunity to ally with an experienced player by setting starting positions.

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Re: Beginner Rematch Sun, 05 November 2017 15:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
talkingbologna is currently offline talkingbologna

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 47
Registered: November 2016
Location: Bologna Heaven
Am I correct in assuming that the player list is still empty? If so, please count me in. Papa Bologna's got a brand new bag.

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icon14.gif  Re: Beginner Rematch Fri, 10 November 2017 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AngeLwitcH is currently offline AngeLwitcH

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: November 2017
Location: UK
If this game is still happening, I'd like to play also. I am new to Stars! and could use some help setting up if anyone is willing Embarassed

(edit) I run Stars! in Win 3.11 through DosBOX if that makes any difference.


[Updated on: Fri, 10 November 2017 04:44]

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Re: Beginner Rematch Fri, 10 November 2017 16:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ludek

 
Crewman 2nd Class

Messages: 16
Registered: December 2009
I'm interested as Advance player and agree with Altruist suggestions .. just i would change rule about allying
for Advanced players allowing alliances only with beginner.. this way beginners could be better exposed how
to play with all tricks and lore Advanced player knows. Race names of advanced players should be made public
before game of course,

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Re: Beginner Rematch Sat, 11 November 2017 15:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AngeLwitcH is currently offline AngeLwitcH

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: November 2017
Location: UK
Allying with beginners makes sense. I've played the tutorial and single player game but I'd like to learn from an advanced player if this game goes ahead

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Re: Beginner Rematch Sun, 19 November 2017 15:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ManicLurch is currently offline ManicLurch

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 439
Registered: May 2009
I thought this game was dead, and here we have 3 players.

It is probably best if we have at least 4. Anyone else want to join?

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Re: Beginner Rematch Sun, 19 November 2017 17:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
talkingbologna is currently offline talkingbologna

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 47
Registered: November 2016
Location: Bologna Heaven
I'll play the remaining 13. Very Happy

I'm just kidding, but surely there are more inexperienced players out there who would like to get in on this. Personally, I wasn't satisfied with the first beginner game. The two or three things I learned were, thanks to my partner, Brandon, quite insightful. Just a few small tweaks would have changed everything (probably). But that's the thing, though, isn't it? To know that a few things you did wrong wrecked you! I can't wait to face people, again.

Since the beginner match and Get the Planet, I haven't been able to treat the computer seriously.

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Re: Beginner Rematch Mon, 20 November 2017 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AngeLwitcH is currently offline AngeLwitcH

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: November 2017
Location: UK
It's looking like we might get a game together after all. I'll look forward to it but are there any mods or anything I'll need to get before playing?

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Re: Beginner Rematch Mon, 20 November 2017 11:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1004
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
talkingbologna wrote on Sun, 19 November 2017 23:52
Since the beginner match and Get the Planet, I haven't been able to treat the computer seriously.


And that's how it should be!

A computer program can surely shoot faster, aim better, calculate faster... but Stars is a true strat & tact game, starting with the race design, and humans are much better (and meaner) with this and although the Stars-"AI" is really weak, I can't believe that even with a much better AI this would change.

Nevertheless I'd love to see the competition between Humans and a modern approach to AI-design and -development like it was invented and used for GO and proofed capable to beat the best players on Earth.
Heck, that WOULD bring back some life into this forums!

talkingbologna wrote on Sun, 19 November 2017 23:52
To know that a few things you did wrong wrecked you! I can't wait to face people, again.


And this attitude, of course, is also the best what can be expected as a result from a beginner game.

Nevertheless the last "beginner"-game was surely too fast and although I had quite fun playing in it, I'd (again) strongly recommend not to mix experienced players with beginners.

As a suggestion to find more beginners, I'd suggest that
# the beginners might also invite friends of them who might be interested
# to send an invitation via the old Stars news list: https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/rec.games.computer.s tars
While it is nowadays filled with mainly spam it is surprising how many old playes are still suscribed to it and rusty oldtimers usually fit quite well into a game described as beginner - lower intermediate - rusty oldtimers. If one writes the game description and gives it a header in a way that it is easily and obviously to distinguish rom spam... it does get read.
# Additionally I could offer to send also an invitation to the players of the old Fledgling Admirals games... most of them who sticked to Stars are well beyond anything you would call beginner - intermediate but they might have friends...

But those are just suggestions and up to the Host.


[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 11:25]

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Re: Beginner Rematch Mon, 20 November 2017 12:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1004
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
AngeLwitcH wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:18
It's looking like we might get a game together after all. I'll look forward to it but are there any mods or anything I'll need to get before playing?


No mods are needed.
To be 100% compatible with this forum's game generation interface and the other players, you should use the following Stars-version:
# STARS26JRC4.ZIP
An absolute must in multiplayer-games is a unique serial number, easily received from Ron:
# https://starsautohost.org/sahforum2/index.php?t=msg&th=1 158&rid=1&pl_view=&start=0#msg_29817

There are several helpful tools but you'll not need them at the beginning, so take your time with them:
# The Stars-Wiki is a great source, here the link directly to tools/unitilities.
Of the multitude of tools and utilities I am usually using only 2 and here the probable most common one:
# Stars! Calculator

You seem to have already managed to get Stars going, great, otherwise in this thread there is lots of help:
# Windows 7 64bit
# Windows 10

It boils down to 3 options (all explained in above thread, following some posts which summarize and explain it quite well):
1) virtual PC with windows XP (needs Win 7 professional/ultimate but probably the easiest and best and can be used for many other old games as well)
2) Oracle virtual box
3) DosBox
a) Dosbox by nmid.
b) StarsBox - standalone Stars! + DOSBox by raptor.
If the tree display of the links above is rather confusing, switch to flat view (upper right corner, link in white box).

4) For Linux users, Stars seems to run quite fine with Wine.

And if you want to stat diving into the wealth of helpful articles, best start with Race Design.


[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 12:57]

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Re: Beginner Rematch Mon, 20 November 2017 16:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
AngeLwitcH is currently offline AngeLwitcH

 
Crewman 3rd Class

Messages: 7
Registered: November 2017
Location: UK
Thanks for the links and I've been and got the calculator also. I have Stars! running fine in Win 3.11 working inside DosBox so everything is great there. I do have a serial number in the game box, will that work?

[Updated on: Mon, 20 November 2017 16:45]

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Re: Beginner Rematch Mon, 20 November 2017 21:00 Go to previous message
talkingbologna is currently offline talkingbologna

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 47
Registered: November 2016
Location: Bologna Heaven
Altruist wrote on Mon, 20 November 2017 11:07

A computer program can surely shoot faster, aim better, calculate faster...


I've always wondered why AI capacity is always limited to points allotment (Civilization, Masters of Orion, Stars!) or up to and including tough to beat odds (Tetris, Halo, etc.). I seen particular setups including individualized programs designed to be more difficult, like the personalities of vs-AI computer chess games. Is there no intermediate step between these and sentient computer opponents?

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