Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Hello again Stars-Autohost! (Old-time player returns.)
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Wed, 28 December 2016 08:50 |
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Hello NMid and NeilH, and thanks for the replies!
If I recall correctly one of the last times I've attempted a HP I heard that the -f and QS races were pretty intense. I've done some reading and am brushing up on QS as I don't recall that being a thing though after realizing the potential I was mindblown!
In response to that I'm trying out different benchmarks for a -f SS, which although I've read a lot of articles of how they tend to favor the HP approach sounds like fun. Seems the Rogue Hull, "free" resources for tech, superior scanning tech, and other aspects of the PRT would work well for the fluid nature of the -f SS. Still need to try it out on paper to know for sure.
Though Jihad DD's by 2425 seems overkill, though after trying my SS in a Tiny-Packed I found that I could do it without the "free" resources in my playtest.
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"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese ProverbReport message to a moderator
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Thu, 29 December 2016 09:13 |
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Thanks for the reply Magic!
And I absolutely am starting to see the enjoyment of how fluid the -f playstyle works with regards to Super Stealth. I think the other thing I wanted to try out was a Quick Start Inner Strength and/or Space Demolition and possibly take a crack at making an Alternate Reality Race (AR is such an oddball!)
At the moment I've had to curb a lot of my obsessive game time after having had my "holiday binge" of Stars! so now it is just a matter of finding a game to play in casually. Playing against the AI, although fun, isn't as difficult or as challenging as I'd like. I really enjoyed the Diplomacy side of things and even going so far as to enjoying the flavoring of one's race/ships and what not.
I think it was the first Multiplayer Game I had a chance of playing, really interesting start but my first SS race was sadly decimated and although I had to leave the game the players found a way to "save" a small group and kept the race in a Zoo. Love it!
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Tue, 10 January 2017 09:16 |
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Hello TalkingBologna!
That would be a lot of fun indeed, and from the looks of it your lined up for another game with me as well with a few other intermediate/handicapped players! Still in my duel though we had to restart due to a file corruption problem that we have not yet figured out how to fix and had to restart with a new set of races and "map."
If you are indeed interested in playing a game with me let me know your preferences in a direct message and I'll see if we can't get things rolling while we wait on the new game to start!
Cheers!
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"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese ProverbReport message to a moderator
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Tue, 10 January 2017 09:23 |
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Hello m9m!
magic9mushroom wrote on Thu, 29 December 2016 17:37QS IS is pretty rare, to my understanding, largely because the temptation's always there to go -f. But hey, +f IS design is relatively-unexplored territory and if you want to experiment with it more power to you.
Actually it seems it was touched on somewhat by Jason Cawley when he was trying to help diversify the community when there was a flood of his "Federation" Race found here.
The "Yankies" appears to be a race he used extensively in one of his games, though it isn't quite a QS as it is a typical HG style take for Inner Strength. I'm going to fidget with it a bit more and see where I can take it. Thanks for the input!
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Thu, 12 January 2017 09:05 |
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At the moment I'm delving through various articles to get a good grasp of what exactly is current and what isn't. I'm slowly making my way through the IS forum currently and finding some good info on that there. From what I can tell I have found the following links to help iron things out for me:
Stars!Wiki Race Design
Basic Race Design by Art Lathrop
"A Few Race Designs" by Jason Cawley
"Race Design, Step by Step" by Mahrin Skel
These are what I've been referrencing so far and I'm getting a sense of what to expect with Early/Mid/Late game. I've been using the following page to help me get a good grasp of the development and how to best make the most of each race's economy:
Stars!Wiki Testbed
I haven't read much up on Overpopulation research though will most certainly check that out next. Thanks!
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"A gem is not polished without rubbing, nor a man perfected without trials." - Chinese ProverbReport message to a moderator
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Thu, 12 January 2017 09:25 |
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...so did some searching. The idea of a 300% over-capacity planet is... astonishing. The whole "orgy" concept has a whole new meaning now, because from the look of it as long as you have the colonists there to operate them, the idea of more factories (or a more substantial IS -f) swarm is just... wow.
Details of it I found here.
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Thu, 12 January 2017 16:33 |
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Entropicurity wrote on Thu, 12 January 2017 15:25...so did some searching. The idea of a 300% over-capacity planet is... astonishing. The whole "orgy" concept has a whole new meaning now, because from the look of it as long as you have the colonists there to operate them, the idea of more factories (or a more substantial IS -f) swarm is just... wow.
Details of it I found here.
Two considerations, two conclusions:
1) Often enough IS is played as -f because the overpopping IS can cope a bit better with the lack of factories in the long run.
The biggest advantage of the orgie in comparison to bombers is, of course, the conquest of intact factories and mines. Well, -f and conquered factories... the conquered factories will get the bad minimal values of the -f, so there are rather lousy.
2) An orgie takes time. And even more time if you want to minimize the impact on your empire (due to the pop you take out). It takes a looong game to really use an orgie. In the example above, which definetly is impressive, the game lasted until 2552. Such long games are rare. Much more common are games lasting around 80 turns... too short to use an orgie as a deciding factor.
The orgie is such an impressive and completly crazy usage of game mechanichs that it is in every IS-players' mind... leading to the rather common mistake of taking pop too early out to just breed, thus crippling the whole economy and then loosing the game.
The other IS problem: defensive mindset. Because there seems so much to be gained from a little bit more of overpopping, the IS player might not look outward to expand but only inward. But as fine as those overpopping abilities are, 100k pop are MUCH more productive on a newly conquered planet than as overpopped 50% addon which even can't operate factories and die constantly.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 January 2017 16:39] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Fri, 13 January 2017 10:05 |
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I have to say, I've been testbedding the IS and am finding that by the time I get a planet 70% or more value to about 18-20% Capacity that by the time my transports get there the planet skyrockets in productivity. I think two "drops" of transports does the trick just fine, but now I'm trying to figure out how to capitalize on that, ISB seems to almost be perfect for this (a starting 600 resource starbase is tough to manage early on).
If anything, it makes travel downtime to a minimum and is really pushing my planets to %50 capacity with little effort, as even in small amounts the transports feel like they emulate a much higher GR!
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Sun, 15 January 2017 10:33 |
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Hi Entropicurity,
nice to see you around on starsautohost. Hop you will enjoy your time here.
ccmaster
PS: you should us the BB benchmark says much more then the resources
[Updated on: Sun, 15 January 2017 10:36] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Sun, 15 January 2017 19:15 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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ccmaster wrote on Mon, 16 January 2017 02:33PS: you should us the BB benchmark says much more then the resources
Standard BB benchmark is hilariously biased toward weapons cheap rest expensive. No other phase of the game has a weapons/con gulf anywhere near as large as the late BB era (pre-cruiser is weap 6-8 con 3-6, cruiser is weap 10-12 con 9, early BB is weap 12-16 con 13, nub is weap 26 con 26), and even then there's a few other toys of similar priority to Armageddon Missiles (full terra tech, valanium if you don't have RS, final-generation electronics) that that test just ignores.
Yes, ship benchmarks are good, but that particular one is incredibly slanted. Juggernaut BBs are fairer, IMO.
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Mon, 16 January 2017 15:54 |
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Hi ,
the standard is BB with amagedon missles and it is good.
It is much better then the resources test but not perfekt.
And yes you have to get to weapon 24 and build ships. So the test is to see if you race could handle research and minerals in time.
Weapon have all races cheap or should have so it is a fix nummber you have to research you also could even the techfields but it will
not change the overall resources you need putting in resources.
So the BB test only shows if the race is broken or not and how fast the race could be in real game. You need minerals and resources and research for it.
So dont hang on the weapon is higher thing this is not the way the testbed works.
If you want go for Nubians with jihads. Should be mostly the same as the ships are cheaper. Only the minerals needed you have to check.
ccmaster
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Mon, 16 January 2017 21:03 |
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I believe the test mentioned is also referenced here:
http://wiki.starsautohost.org/wiki/Testbed
I've been fidgeting with it, and think I've done fairly well with a -f SS though I've read on some of the most recent "records" and have some work still to do to get my economy where it needs to be.
I have to say, after testbedding without factories these past couple of times that when it came time to try a +f race I was a bit thrown off. It is amazing how much of a change the playstyles are!
And thanks for the tip CCMaster!
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Tue, 17 January 2017 20:48 |
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magic9mushroom | | Commander | Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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ccmaster wrote on Tue, 17 January 2017 07:54And yes you have to get to weapon 24 and build ships. So the test is to see if you race could handle research and minerals in time.
Weapon have all races cheap or should have so it is a fix nummber you have to research you also could even the techfields but it will
not change the overall resources you need putting in resources.
Yes, it does. Because the weapons requirement is so much higher than anything else for Armageddon/Organic/Bear/BSC Battleships, taking non-weapons fields expensive does not appreciably slow their attainment.
Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 452,480 tech + 118,400 ships = 570,880
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 365,045 tech + 118,400 ships = 483,445
3.5 cheap gets only a 15% cost saving.
Compare the juggernaut case:
Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 245,800 tech + 102,400 ships = 348,200
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 158,365 tech + 102,400 ships = 260,765
Here it gets a 25% cost saving.
And for 100 omega nubians (TGD 5 omega 1 nexus 1 jam30 1 thruster 1 CPS 3 deflector):
Total resource requirement for weapons cheap rest expensive race = 2,678,125 tech + 80,700 ships = 2,758,825
Total resource requirement for WCN cheap L norm PB expensive race = 1,159,645 tech + 80,700 ships = 1,240,345
Here the 3.5 cheap race saves a mammoth 55%.
Basically, the W cheap rest expensive races get away with the expensive fields more easily in the Arm BB benchmark than they would with the more balanced targets of most phases of the game, so they place higher than they should (because the extra econ they bought with it isn't squelched, but the drawbacks are). That's what I mean when I say that it's biased (though not quite as much as I'd thought) and that more balanced tech on the benchmark ship would be better. I do wholly agree, though, about an aggregated-free-resources benchmark (such as tech + ship) being better than a snapshot-total-resources benchmark like Xk@2450 (which cannot sensibly compare factoried and factoryless races due to the absurdly-different "disposable percentage").
talkingbologna wrote on Tue, 17 January 2017 06:43Would a fair benchmark be, say, juggernaut BBs with bear shields(rs), supercomputers, and prop12 scoop or IS10?
I don't see why not.
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Re: Hello again Stars-Autohost! |
Tue, 17 January 2017 23:45 |
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Hi ,
ok I have not so much interest to explain it again but well someone have.
So sorry for my English all of you, maybe someone else could bring it in better English.
History :
Long time ago the stars-player what to test-bed there races without playing a real game to have some numbers to see what race do better in games.
The Resources Test was born.
Several people bring out maxed Races for this test ( CA TT special ) what could not played in a game as they are broken. So they have to look for a
other test what is more realistic that you still could see what race should do better in a real game or is at least playable.
What where the thoughts about it in the past:
You research basic if you can :
Frigates weapon 8 ( beams)
Frigates Weapon 9/10 ( beams)
CC Weapon 10 ( beams)
CC Weapon 12 ( Missile)
BB Weapon 12 ( Missile)
BB Weapon 16 ( Beams some times Missile)
BB Weapon 22 ( Beams)
First there should be a test for every tech-step and a build of fix number of ships. But it was to complicated to find rules where you have to build is it allowed to research on etc.
So the last idea was to bring them all together. They take weapon 24 for the shipdesine.
The weapon 24 are taken to simulate the needs of other research you have to do some times.
Also the Weapon 24 Missiles where taken in the design not because they need tech 24 they came in for the high Ironium cost to simulate the early build ships.
No one says the test is perfect for all kinds of testing, he was never created for this. He was created to see if a race is playable in a game and point out how good the race could be, just for the people who loves numbers.
ccmaster
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