Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Bar » How to balance CA and AR?
How to balance CA and AR? |
Wed, 04 June 2014 15:29 |
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theval | | Petty Officer 3rd Class | Messages: 43
Registered: May 2014 | |
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Hi everyone!
Looks like there is some effort on cloning Stars! is underway in another thread and I'm sure it'll require some routine reimplementing things that are already there.
But I'm more interested in how to bring the things forward.
CA and AR are frequently banned as you know and I suppose a good clone must address the issues of these PRTs.
Does any one have ideas how to do it apart from simply removing them? Please speak up!
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 07:22 |
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mrvan | | Officer Cadet 1st Year | Messages: 220
Registered: May 2014 | |
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XAPBob wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 02:46PRT still gets OAships (which are currently useless on own planets) but TF costs less rather than being inatant. (with TT it would be 35 points)
Instaforming, and the insta-revert, are the main brokenness about CA.
Giving AR a resource boost is an interesting thought, I'd reduce their colmodule Iron requirement, and let the ISB discount stack,
I agree on CA. The instaforming is broken and also makes the OA useless except for trade, and also removes the synergy between CA and TT.
If 50% discount is not enough compared to other PRTs, it would also be possible to do limited instaforming by altering the hab formula and place less penalty on suboptimal values, or give them some sort of extra bonus (e.g. let non-penetrating scanners also discover hab, or give the scout an inbuilt scanner that detects hab at 40ly but not pop, orbiting fleets, etc)
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For AR, I agree the resources and vulnerability of starbases are the big problems. The resources are not horrible early on since no factories are needed, and at max development they get sqrt(26*3M)=2800, comparable to a race with 12*15 factories and 1:1000 pop (1000+1500*1.2=2800). Of course, AR don't have the OBRM option to get 10% extra and a JOAT OBRM HP with 1:2500 and 15*25 factories can get (1320/2.5 + 1320 * 2.5 * 1.5=)5478.0, but it is all pretty comparable given the time and RW sacrifices an ultimate HP needs to make to get there.
The problem for AR is I think the midlevel (say en 16, con 12), where the HG can expect to be pretty close to that max already on good planets, while the AR is stuck on (e.g. sqrt(16*2M)=1700, and finding the resources to do all of terraforming, En/C research, and surviving (inc W research).
So, what is a good way to boost midlevel growth without unduly affecting balance? Maybe place either pop or energy outside the sqrt?
For the rest, I agree with stacking ISB and innate discount, and maybe add more armor slots to the DS? Also, would making a bigger battle board be an option, so defending fleets can intercept enemy fleets before they are in starbase range? (so the defenders have the option to stay close to the SB and get fire support, or move out and prevent an attack on the SB)
[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2014 07:25] Report message to a moderator
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 07:38 |
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theval | | Petty Officer 3rd Class | Messages: 43
Registered: May 2014 | |
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mrvan wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 13:22I agree on CA. The instaforming is broken and also makes the OA useless except for trade, and also removes the synergy between CA and TT.
If 50% discount is not enough compared to other PRTs, it would also be possible to do limited instaforming by altering the hab formula and place less penalty on suboptimal values, or give them some sort of extra bonus (e.g. let non-penetrating scanners also discover hab, or give the scout an inbuilt scanner that detects hab at 40ly but not pop, orbiting fleets, etc)
I think instaforming should be removed then. Instead it will be great if CA has some new biotechnological gadgets, such as new hull types or a biocomponents.
mrvan wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 13:22
So, what is a good way to boost midlevel growth without unduly affecting balance? Maybe place either pop or energy outside the sqrt?
Also remember that factories are still an option. I can imagine a race that inhabits starbases still has orbital factories.
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 07:52 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Well, the way I'd try to find a new balance for CA and AR would be a little step at a time. For instance, limit "instaforming" to 5-10 clicks per turn, and make it cost 10-20 Resources. Still fast, still cheap, still mostly CA, but a start in the road to more tweaking if the desired rebalance is not achieved.
I think the ARs main weakness is the mid-game, when their SBs become weaker than typical warfleets and their shipbuilding is constrained by mineral availability. So, make the "kill starbase" order work differently against ARs, allow them to stack more things in the same hulls, give 'em more SB hulls to play with, allow the building of "extra" purely military SBs, or at least make some remoteminers easier to build. Taming the Mineral Fountain would also help in the diplomatic front.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 10:00 |
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theval | | Petty Officer 3rd Class | Messages: 43
Registered: May 2014 | |
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Asmodai wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 15:08Quote:I think instaforming should be removed then Maybe bonus to terraforming, like IS defence discount should be better?
CA has unique, "bio" theme that should be keeped.
Insta terra is very broken. No race should have such advantage.
More bio oriented gadgets seem to be good idea. More organic armours, maybe some weird organic weapon?
I've been thinking about some gadgets that affect life conditions. CA must be by definition a biotechnology-oriented race. How would you terraform a planet after all? By spreading some microscopic life form, such as bacteria, that alters chemical structure of atmosphere, making it suitable to breathe, that penetrate outer layers of soil in order to absorb heat from volcanoes, absorb or emit alpha-particles, etc.
Such race would be an expert in altering life conditions of their species, such as:
* being able to prolong life (this basically is increasing pop growth rate in long term)
* hibernation (can be implemented as escape pods for destroyed freighters)
* advanced autonomous ecosystems (being able to generate resources without colonists)
I find particularly inspiring a Wikipedia article about emerging technologies:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_emerging_technologies
though biotechnology section is mainly focused on advanced medicine and life extension.
Perhaps watching some Sci Fi movies might help me get some inspiration... Can someone recommend something?
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 12:50 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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mrvan wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 18:13I guess defenses would need to do something different from what they do now, as packets, bombs, and popdropping is all irrelevant for AR.
I don't think you need to double the efficacy of slots, just add more slots. Starbases are relatively cheap anyway, especially if ISB and AR bonus are stacked.
Another interesting option could be to change the +1 range into +2 for Ultra Stations and +3 for death stars.
Obviously Defenses would boost Armor & Shields. Also, as they're supposed to actually include rocket launchers pointing outwards, they could also boost weapon range and/or power.
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 13:06 |
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Inquisitor80 | | Warrant Officer | Messages: 115
Registered: February 2004 Location: The dark places in betwee... | |
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mrvan wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 11:13m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 11:31XAPBob wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 14:56therefore reducing the MM and effort required for a fully MM mao strategy?
AR are already good at Mao (no industry to rebuild) but they should perhaps be allowed to build "Defenses" on their SBs.
I guess defenses would need to do something different from what they do now, as packets, bombs, and popdropping is all irrelevant for AR.
I don't think you need to double the efficacy of slots, just add more slots. Starbases are relatively cheap anyway, especially if ISB and AR bonus are stacked.
Another interesting option could be to change the +1 range into +2 for Ultra Stations and +3 for death stars.
my experiments with 10x innate armor have been very promising. needs a bunch more testing to say it is the solution. However i am currently testing variations on SB hulls. I double or tripled armor and shield slots. the nice part of doing this is that it is still balanced with cost. you can make a super dupper unkillable deathstar. but you are gonna pay for every inch of it. i also added 2 additional orbital slots onto the DS. 2 gates and 2 Packet flingers? 4 gates? 4 packet flingers? makes interesting possibilities
when it is all resolved i think the "easiest" solution is altering the SB hulls and possibly adjusting the resource formula.
For CA going on the time travel theory, maybe they can only send through microscopic things like bacteria or non-physical things like radio waves? so they colonize the planet, send bacteria back in time, this then creates a parrelle world where the enviroment is perfect for them. they then are shifted to that reality and the planet is perfect. upon invasion they send a signal to the previous them to cancle the terraforming, thus it seems to be undone, this has the effect of shifting them back to the original timeline/parrellel world where nothing happened.
as for the orbital things it is just a matter of the same basic process except it originates from the orbital device and is less efficant so it takes perceivable time to adjust the planet and it shifts multiple times as it steps toward the end goal
[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2014 17:44] by Moderator
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Re: How to balance CA and AR? |
Thu, 05 June 2014 13:31 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Inquisitor80 wrote on Thu, 05 June 2014 19:06I double or tripled armor and shield slots. the nice part of doing this is that it is still balanced with cost. you can make a super dupper unkillable deathstar. but you are gonna pay for every inch of it.
Me likes!
As long as you don't run into the "armor overload" bug.
Quote:when it is all resolved i think the "easiest" solution is altering the SB hulls and possibly adjusting the resource formula.
My concept with the "orbital" Defenses was aimed at the same, but I agree yours is simpler and more flexible.
Quote:For CA going on the time travel theory, maybe they can only send through microscopic things like bacteria or non-physical things like radio waves? so they colonize the planet, send bacteria back in time, this then creates a parrelle world where the enviroment is perfect for them. they then are shifted to that reality and the planet is perfect. upon invasion they send a signal to the previous them to cancle the terraforming, thus it seems to be undone, this has the effect of shifting them back to the original timeline/parrellel world where nothing happened.
Exactly. It makes more sense from an energy cost pov and minimizes paradoxes. It also hints at that fabled "biotech" expertise ppl tend to take for granted.
The movie had them sending back in time entire planets with all their pop, and there was no hint of orbital terraforming machinery.
[Updated on: Thu, 05 June 2014 13:35]
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