Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » help needed for making race (HE / IT ideas)
| help needed for making race |
Thu, 24 April 2014 18:53  |
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 iloverushandledzepp |
 | Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 80
Registered: April 2014
Location: Canada | |
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can someone help me design a race?
can someone give me in depth info on what is mandatory in each stage of creation and what is suggested optional settings? can i play with the grav/temp/rad?
can someone do that for HE and IT?
Drill on the sun?! I'd rather freeze on Pluto than fry on the sun! What? How much minerals did you say? Well, Since you put it that way...Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Thu, 24 April 2014 21:28  |
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| magic9mushroom |
 | Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Ah, Hyper-Expansion race design. My favourite topic in existence. 
Okay, so let's start with the obvious. HE have doubled growth, but halved planetary capacity. This means that an HE will always want lower growth rates and larger hab settings than a non-HE race - while maximum or near-maximum growth is good for other races, HE run into severe bottlenecks with moving their population if they attempt growth rates much over 30%. Their wider habitability ranges also boost their real growth rate even further beyond its chosen value, so very low growth rates can remain surprisingly viable (since the race wizard gives incredible amounts of points for dropping one's growth below 10%, allowing very powerful settings in other areas).
In terms of lesser racial traits, there are a few quirks to HE:
1) While a normal race should generally take either both Improved Fuel Efficiency and No Ram Scoop Engines or neither, HE can get away with taking only No Ram Scoop Engines. This is because they have access to the Settler's Delight engine, which is a ramscoop unaffected by No Ram Scoop Engines.
2) HE should always take Only Basic Remote Mining. As they usually have incredibly wide habitability ranges, they have no need to remote-mine worlds.
3) HE are relatively fond of Improved Starbases, as they must build more starbases than a normal race thanks to their smaller planet size and wider habitability ranges. You can do without it for the slower tri-immunes, but it is absolutely essential for supergrowth races.
There are two main forms of HE in use: the tri-immune HE and the supergrowth HE.
Tri-immune HE races, as the name suggests, take immunity to all three environmental factors, making every single planet 100% habitable. To provide the incredible amount of points required for this choice, they take very low growth rates of 4-7% (8-14% after the HE doubling). These growth rates aren't as crippling as you might think, because every single planet is a 100% breeder and as such their real growth rates aren't too far from standard races (which are usually in the range of 10-13% achieved, discounting CA which is usually banned). The 4% variant has enough points to take absurdly good race settings elsewhere, but it's rather discredited these days as it can't stand up to most monster races. The 5% variant usually takes HP-ish factories (15/8/21) alongside 1/1000 population efficiency and 3.5 cheap tech (that is, three fields cheap and one normal, with the remaining two expensive). The 6% variant is a bit more starved for points, and its choices boil down to NAS vs. factories and mines vs. tech.
A good race to get a feel for the tri-immune HE design would be my Mimigas:
Hyper-Expansion
Improved Starbases, No Ram Scoop Engines, Only Basic Remote Mining, No Advanced Scanners, Regenerating Shields
Immune to Gravity, Immune to Temperature, Immune to Radiation, 6% colonist growth rate
1 resource per 1000 colonists
10 factories produce 15 resources, factories cost 8 resources to build, 10,000 colonists operate 17 factories
Factories cost 1kT less Germanium YES
10 mines produce 11kT, mines cost 3 resources, 10,000 colonists operate 22 mines
Weapons and Construction research cheap, all others expensive; Expensive tech starts at 3 NO.
0 points left over
Note that tri-immune HE performs very badly in games which do not have the "Accelerated BBS Start" option activated, so don't use them in those conditions.
Supergrowth HE I must be a little more cagey about, because a large chunk of my original research on the topic is invested in the Shofixti race in Lowtek, and I don't want to hurt Nmid's chances with that race by revealing its secrets. However, I can talk about the pre-existing paradigm for such races.
A supergrowth HE, true to its name, is an HE with growth rate over 10%, and thus over 20% after the HE doubling (usually, they run 13-16%, which is doubled to 26-32%). Such races usually run bi-immune habs to get great planets without costing as much as tri-immunity, and usually run -f (that is, facto
...
[Updated on: Thu, 24 April 2014 21:44] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 03:32 |
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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 06:58Supergrowth HE I must be a little more cagey about, because a large chunk of my original research on the topic is invested in the Shofixti race in Lowtek, and I don't want to hurt Nmid's chances with that race by revealing its secrets. However, I can talk about the pre-existing paradigm for such races.
Feel free to discuss it.
The game suffered a few slowdowns, faulty computers (me) and is currently frozen.
It's more or less just tactics and battle manoeuvres now.
I'm currently not sure that the game will resume or not... every one is busy/moved on to other games and this has sorta been left on the backburner limbo.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 05:26 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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nmid wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 17:32magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 06:58Supergrowth HE I must be a little more cagey about, because a large chunk of my original research on the topic is invested in the Shofixti race in Lowtek, and I don't want to hurt Nmid's chances with that race by revealing its secrets. However, I can talk about the pre-existing paradigm for such races.
Feel free to discuss it.
The game suffered a few slowdowns, faulty computers (me) and is currently frozen.
It's more or less just tactics and battle manoeuvres now.
I'm currently not sure that the game will resume or not... every one is busy/moved on to other games and this has sorta been left on the backburner limbo.
Okay, then.
A while back I decided I was going to try to tame ccmaster's -f HE for use in a PBEM. The problem is capacity; the main ways to increase capacity are to use wider hab and to use factories.
The trick to widening hab is to drop the second immunity; with a single immunity you can take very wide habs (1in2 or 1in3; expands to 80-90%) instead of a relatively narrow bi-immune hab (1in4 or 1in5, usually expanding to 50-60%), and for less points to boot.
Factories are a bit harder; running classic HG-style factories of 10/9/13 or so with a race growing at 26% simply doesn't work because your colonisation cycle massively outruns your industrial cycle (take a colony being fed pop and Germ from another breeder and then exporting once it hits 25% - it takes all of 3 turns to fill the world, but another 7 for it to finish its factories and 2 more to finish mines), which means your race screeches to a halt since two or three whole generations of colonies will be trying to export population while still building factories. The trick is to make the factories compound faster - 15/9/10 or so, which would normally be a QS setup - so that they come online at a similar rate, compared to pop growth, as a normal HG's (in this case, 5 turns for the factories to finish and 1 more for the mines). The hard bit is finding the points for this; you may have to drop growth rate to 12% or take LSP to pull it off (in Lowtek, Weapons research was required expensive, so I just took all-expensive).
The resulting race is an absolute nightmare of micromanagement, but it's exceptionally fast and doesn't burn out the way the pure -f HE does (its final capacity/space is about half that of the Feds, and not far off some one-immune HGs' totals). I took it into Lowtek (which had AccBBS off) mainly to prove that without AccBBS such a design is overpowered and should be banned - I stand by that assertion, as I hit 5.6k @ 30 (a pretty good testbed number for normal races with AccBBS off; this was in a dense, and I started in the corner and had been engaged in a war for the last decade or so). While I unfortunately had to bow out of Lowtek shortly thereafter, it went on to hit 31.7k @ 50 despite going unplayed for at least a couple of turns and being embroiled in a two-front war for the intervening period. Just mind-boggling.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2014 06:07] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 06:36 |
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| XAPBob |
 | Lt. Commander |
Messages: 957
Registered: August 2012 | |
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The Shofixti are/were overpowered, and when they met and allied* with an HP IT in 2412 their strategic weakness (lack of gates) disappeared. They were trading blows with the neighbouring WM, and declared war in 2415.
Their economic growth was impressive, making up for their -T settings.
EDIT: removed irrelevant game story...
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2014 06:41] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 09:05 |
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iloverushandledzepp wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 00:53can someone help me design a race?
A while ago I posted some links and articles about race design:
# Hints & Tips (Fledgling Admiral Games)
Below the first post there are also several other articles with links which might interest you.
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2014 09:06] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 15:23 |
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| iloverushandledzepp |
| Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 80
Registered: April 2014
Location: Canada | |
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here is my origional
https://www.dropbox.com/s/7wdt4b72qu01ggp/AVIAN.R1
here is what nmid helped me with.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/kvdslph25wclgvf/AVIAN.R2
Altruist, i looked at them and tried using some of it. still its quite confusing to me even tho i did my best. maybe you and others can look at both files and come up with your edited version of the Avianoids like nmid did. please feel free to comment what i did right/wrong ect. as well as what you modified.
the following is for me for future reference from an email from nmid:
Quote: Nmid wrote to me in an email:
Why leave 50 points?
IT races can make do without FM (IFE) and NRSE, but I prefer using it.
CE is also something an IT can use, but it's something I would never use.
ARM is a good toy for an IT to use with it's infinity gates, but as I said earlier, I hate wasting resources making miners and then defend them and then ship minerals back and forth...
Leave 7-13 clicks from the corners for maximum terraforming advantage.
1/6 is fine for an IT, but go for 1/5 at the least for non IT races
14% GR is really low. Your race won't live in a normal game.
Please use 17% at the very least.
Why take weapons exp and con cheap?
Why take elec, energy normal?
Taking con.pro cheap might make sense, but I still don't like it.
Drill on the sun?! I'd rather freeze on Pluto than fry on the sun! What? How much minerals did you say? Well, Since you put it that way...Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 16:24 |
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iloverushandledzepp wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 21:23Altruist, i looked at them and tried using some of it. still its quite confusing to me even tho i did my best. maybe you and others can look at both files and come up with your edited version of the Avianoids like nmid did. please feel free to comment what i did right/wrong ect. as well as what you modified.
Nope.
I am afraid that's not possible.
How to play Stars and how to create a race design is dependent on the context: universe size, density, number of players, special rules, victory conditions and your plan how to win the game (strategy). Your own preferences are important, too: Are you rather a peaceful diplomatically oriented player, a warmonger, love or hate micro-management...
Sounds complex but this is the fun and reason why we are still playing the game. Otherwise there would be just THE ultimate race design and nothing new to discover and to play. But Stars is different: a good race design and strat in one game might be a totally wrong approach in a different setup.
Without that context you will got a lot of advice that won't really help you.
So, just jump into the cold water and sign up for a real game vs humans. Then you know in what setup your race has to prove itself and in that context you can get real advice. It makes it also so much easier to read all this wealth of strat articles because then you know what information you might use in your game and what's rather for other races or different setups.
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 16:34 |
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Quite true.
I told you much the same in that same mail, when I said
Quote:Till you don't explain what you have in mind, I won't be able to better advise you.
You only need to get a rough idea about possible race types.
Once you do, you have to explore to find which one you like playing the best, as Altruist said.
I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Fri, 25 April 2014 17:44 |
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| iloverushandledzepp |
| Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 80
Registered: April 2014
Location: Canada | |
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Altruist wrote on Fri, 25 April 2014 16:24
How to play Stars and how to create a race design is dependent on the context: universe size, density, number of players, special rules, victory conditions and your plan how to win the game (strategy). Your own preferences are important, too: Are you rather a peaceful diplomatically oriented player, a warmonger, love or hate micro-management...
Sounds complex but this is the fun and reason why we are still playing the game. Otherwise there would be just THE ultimate race design and nothing new to discover and to play. But Stars is different: a good race design and strat in one game might be a totally wrong approach in a different setup.
Without that context you will got a lot of advice that won't really help you.
So, just jump into the cold water and sign up for a real game vs humans. Then you know in what setup your race has to prove itself and in that context you can get real advice. It makes it also so much easier to read all this wealth of strat articles because then you know what information you might use in your game and what's rather for other races or different setups.
so its more of trial and error? i guess ill just stick by that and experiment then ill learn right? 
i will still look up more info i can find thanks Nmid and Altruist
PS: at least i know now alot of the basics even if it doesent turn out right in the end. i can adjust and such also, i havent taken english since grade 7 so (i dont know why they diddent make me take it in highschool) so i am trying my best to understand. i dont intend to reject advice 
[Updated on: Fri, 25 April 2014 17:50]
Drill on the sun?! I'd rather freeze on Pluto than fry on the sun! What? How much minerals did you say? Well, Since you put it that way...Report message to a moderator
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| Re: help needed for making race |
Sat, 26 April 2014 19:13 |
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| iloverushandledzepp |
| Chief Petty Officer |
Messages: 80
Registered: April 2014
Location: Canada | |
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thankyou
Drill on the sun?! I'd rather freeze on Pluto than fry on the sun! What? How much minerals did you say? Well, Since you put it that way...Report message to a moderator
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It's good for your race designs, tactics, tricks, and strategies. You'll need to know if you can make a race work, and also if you actually *like* making it work. 
