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Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Fri, 26 July 2013 12:47 Go to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
There was some talk on the forum about a narrow hab IT that would always get a second world valued at 100%.

I'm working with
Gravity 1.64g to 4.64g
Temperature 64 to 144 degrees
Radiation 66mR to 86mR

I researched this and the short answer is that, the one I tested had a 39% change of getting it, MAYBE. The Long answer is....

First off you have to have an understanding some of what goes into making a map for each game

From my Research a map is made based on 3 items when using a .DEF file to make a game.
1. the Random seed used in the .DEF File. This give you one of 4096 possible maps as long as items 2 & 3 stay the same. I've ran a few million gens and if items 2 & 3 don't change you get the same map every 4096th gen (so random seed X & X+4096 are the same)

2. Each major race type is assigned some unknown value and these are added up to get a second seed. You can change the order of the races and you get the same seed, if you change any one race then you get a different seed. So if item 1 & 3 stay the same and you switch one race from SS to SD you get a different seed sometimes.

3. Within each race a value is assigned by the settings in the Custom Race Wizard and these are added up to get a third seed. If you change any race settings you may or may not get a new seed as I didn't research every setting but changing a races Habs or growth rate will change the seed it appears. So with 6 races in a game the 6 values are added together for the seed.

There may be more to it, but that's what I've been able to figure out so far. Now these 3 items are put together and somehow Stars makes a new game.

Now if you know ITEM 2, the races used in a game, you can find ITEM 1 by genning 4096 games with those race types and find the one that has the same planet X & Y locations. But without ITEM 3 the home worlds(HW) will be different and all the planet habs also are different

Now to the case at hand, the Narrow Hab IT. I used a 6 race game, ITw/NH, SD, IT, PP, IT & SS,
...

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Sun, 28 July 2013 08:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
XAPBob is currently offline XAPBob

 
Lt. Commander

Messages: 893
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It will be 100% fairly early though....

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Sun, 28 July 2013 15:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
No not really

Second World Value in year 2400 for IT with Narrow Habs for the first 4097 seeds using Stars 2.7.

10% 75ea 1.8%
11 to 30% 870ea 21.2%
31 to 50% 789ea 19.2%
51 to 70% 460ea 11.2%
71 to 90% 262ea 6.3%
90 to 100% 1636ea 39.9%

10 to 50% 42.4%
51 to 100% 57.4%

This is about average for the 10 or so different series I have ran using 5 or 6 different races in each set

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Sun, 28 July 2013 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
If someone want to check some of this here's my program code for it.

Batch file to make a file of 4096 of the 2400yr planet files for one race.

:begin
echo off
FOR /L %%A in (1,1,4096) DO (
DEL def3.txt
ECHO %%A
ECHO %%A>>def3.txt
COPY def1.txt +def3.txt +def2.txt DEF.def
Stars27j.exe -a DEF.def
Stars27j.exe -dmp GAME.m1
COPY Results.txt +GAME.p1 Results.txt)


Be sure to not include any extra spaces after the text on each line. Results.txt needs to be a empty txt file

def1.txt file

IT Test
1 3 3

There is a space after the last 3.

def2.txt file

0 1 1 0 0 0 0
6
.\Races\it100.r1
.\Races\HE.R1
.\Races\it-nor.R2
.\Races\sd.r1
.\Races\PP.r1
.\Races\wm.r1
0
0
0
0
0
1 50
1 100
2 100
GAME.xy

Make sure a copy of Stars is in the same folder and that the file Results.txt is a empty text file.

Run the batch file from the command line and on my computers it take from 10 to 15 minutes to run.

I then change the name of Results.txt to Results.csv and open it with a spread sheet (LibreOffice), freeze the first line and then sort by Starbase Type and Value. This give me three sections, "Porthole to Beyond", "Starbase" & 4095 headers with the first two sorted by value.





[Updated on: Sun, 28 July 2013 15:58]

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 30 July 2013 05:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1137
Registered: May 2008
LittleEddie wrote on Mon, 29 July 2013 05:28
No not really

Second World Value in year 2400 for IT with Narrow Habs for the first 4097 seeds using Stars 2.7.

10% 75ea 1.8%
11 to 30% 870ea 21.2%
31 to 50% 789ea 19.2%
51 to 70% 460ea 11.2%
71 to 90% 262ea 6.3%
90 to 100% 1636ea 39.9%

10 to 50% 42.4%
51 to 100% 57.4%

This is about average for the 10 or so different series I have ran using 5 or 6 different races in each set



That's not what he meant. The point is that with a narrow-hab IT, your second world will always terraform to 100% with tech 10 in each field, and will usually do so before then. Thus, a OWW IT is more powerful than any other OWW (well, at least in the short run, "OWW" TT CA eventually outstrips it) due to getting two worlds instead of one.


[Updated on: Tue, 30 July 2013 05:26]

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 30 July 2013 07:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 30 July 2013 05:24

That's not what he meant. The point is that with a narrow-hab IT, your second world will always terraform to 100% with tech 10 in each field, and will usually do so before then. Thus, a OWW IT is more powerful than any other OWW (well, at least in the short run, "OWW" TT CA eventually outstrips it) due to getting two worlds instead of one.


Yes, at that point every planet that can be terraformed would be better then 50% after terraforming, with most of them being 90% or better.

But because of the narrow-habs you're only talking about less then 10% of all the planets being green, in a Small-Normal that only 11 or 12 planets of the 120. So if you have a lucky planet draw your resources would top out around 25,000 (40,000max) or so. And losing a planet would mean losing 10% or more of your empire.

So like everything, it seems, in Stars! it takes some luck, some skill as overall it's a very balanced game.



[Updated on: Tue, 30 July 2013 07:11]

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 30 July 2013 15:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
Commander

Messages: 1563
Registered: January 2011
Location: GMT +5.5

LittleEddie wrote on Fri, 26 July 2013 22:17

First off you have to have an understanding some of what goes into making a map for each game

From my Research a map is made based on 3 items when using a .DEF file to make a game.
1. the Random seed used in the .DEF File. This give you one of 4096 possible maps as long as items 2 & 3 stay the same. I've ran a few million gens and if items 2 & 3 don't change you get the same map every 4096th gen (so random seed X & X+4096 are the same)

2. Each major race type is assigned some unknown value and these are added up to get a second seed. You can change the order of the races and you get the same seed, if you change any one race then you get a different seed. So if item 1 & 3 stay the same and you switch one race from SS to SD you get a different seed sometimes.

3. Within each race a value is assigned by the settings in the Custom Race Wizard and these are added up to get a third seed. If you change any race settings you may or may not get a new seed as I didn't research every setting but changing a races Habs or growth rate will change the seed it appears. So with 6 races in a game the 6 values are added together for the seed.

There may be more to it, but that's what I've been able to figure out so far. Now these 3 items are put together and somehow Stars makes a new game.

Now if you know ITEM 2, the races used in a game, you can find ITEM 1 by genning 4096 games with those race types and find the one that has the same planet X & Y locations. But without ITEM 3 the home worlds(HW) will be different and all the planet habs also are different


Fantastic research work.

From what I've seen in my testbeds (I always use 0530), as long as the universe size and player numbers remains the same, I have not noticed any change in the seed number / universe / planet habs.... apart from perhaps the HW of my race. Perhaps that's the only change, because I didn't notice any other.

Also the race type only makes a difference on account of I
...




I know my minefields.. but I'm a chaff sweeper.
I used to curse when I got stuck in traffic... till I realised I AM traffic.

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 30 July 2013 19:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
My question is "How many different Maps can you get using only 1 seed number"?

Quote:

Seed Test
1 3 3 9
0 1 1 0 0 0 0
6
.\Races\wm.r1
.\Races\ss.r1
.\Races\IT-R.R2
.\Races\is-f.r2
.\Races\PP.r1
.\Races\IT-MID.r9
0
0
0
0
0
1 50
1 100
2 100
SeedTest.xy


This .DEF file uses the Random seed "9", by using the same .Def file and only changing the Race Files (keeping the total at 6) I can get a number of different universes.

So as a host you can't pre-pick your universe before you have the players race files.






[Updated on: Tue, 30 July 2013 19:17]

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 30 July 2013 23:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
Commander

Messages: 1137
Registered: May 2008
LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 30 July 2013 21:10
magic9mushroom wrote on Tue, 30 July 2013 05:24

That's not what he meant. The point is that with a narrow-hab IT, your second world will always terraform to 100% with tech 10 in each field, and will usually do so before then. Thus, a OWW IT is more powerful than any other OWW (well, at least in the short run, "OWW" TT CA eventually outstrips it) due to getting two worlds instead of one.


Yes, at that point every planet that can be terraformed would be better then 50% after terraforming, with most of them being 90% or better.

But because of the narrow-habs you're only talking about less then 10% of all the planets being green, in a Small-Normal that only 11 or 12 planets of the 120. So if you have a lucky planet draw your resources would top out around 25,000 (40,000max) or so. And losing a planet would mean losing 10% or more of your empire.

So like everything, it seems, in Stars! it takes some luck, some skill as overall it's a very balanced game.



It's called "one-world wonder" for a reason. The idea is to use stupid growth rates, cheap tech, and insanely fast factories to mount an early-game rush.

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Thu, 01 August 2013 21:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
I did a little more work on this and I don't think I can call it a "bug" as it.

a. Does the same thing in Stars! 2.6 JRC4 and Stars! 2.7.
b. It does the same thing with PP as well as IT (I only did a small test of PP but the results where the same).
c. It's something that any player can do using only the standard Race Wizard.

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 13 August 2013 17:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
Commander

Messages: 1079
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Location: SW3 & 10023
LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 30 July 2013 16:17
So as a host you can't pre-pick your universe before you have the players race files.

My workaround is to find out the PRTs, and find the seed using those PRTs. IIRC, the universe may change after putting the players' actual races in, so the host needs to recreate the race files on his machine.

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Re: Narrow Hab IT w/100% second world Tue, 13 August 2013 21:41 Go to previous message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
Lt. Junior Grade
Helped track down one or more Stars bugs

Messages: 489
Registered: February 2011
Location: Delaware
neilhoward wrote on Tue, 13 August 2013 17:56
LittleEddie wrote on Tue, 30 July 2013 16:17
So as a host you can't pre-pick your universe before you have the players race files.

My workaround is to find out the PRTs, and find the seed using those PRTs. IIRC, the universe may change after putting the players' actual races in, so the host needs to recreate the race files on his machine.


Thank you, I'm pretty sure that's what I said

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