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Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Fri, 20 July 2012 01:33 Go to next message
Bystander is currently offline Bystander

 
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I am aware that ships with Range 2 beam plus Sappers do not always close to range 2 when they should.

Less common is the complaint that beam/sapper designs avoid combat completely for a turn or two when they use "Max Damage Ratio" orders.

I have an example if anyone is interested in the files.

Here is a description of what happened:

My stack of 25 Enigma Pulsar battleships with Range 3 beams and Range 3 (of course) sappers moves two squares toward enemies. Primary orders are "armed ships" of which there are plenty. At this point, the nearest enemy stack is three squares away. For third move, my battleship stack reverses direction - so is now four squares away from any enemy stacks. No enemy stacks advance closer than 4 squares. Firing begins.

Impact is that my stack of battleships do not fire EITHER sappers or beams because nobody is in range. Next turn, they do move forward and get shots off.

My impression is that even "Max Damage Ratio" requires the ship to get and stay within range of the most attractive primary target with at least one weapon before it can try to pick a square that maximizes the damage ratio.

Just want to confirm this is a bug with designs of range 3 sappers plus range 3 beams using "Max Damage Ratio" orders as opposed to me misunderstanding the battle orders.




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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Fri, 20 July 2012 09:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BeeKeeper is currently offline BeeKeeper

 
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I am not sure it is a bug - sounds rather like another example of the strange behaviour ships sometimes exhibit during battle. I believe the battle engine has a few quirks which are not fully understood.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Fri, 20 July 2012 21:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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That's why you should always use "max damage" instead of "max damage ratio" when you have such ships. They'll try to close in no matter what.


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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Sat, 21 July 2012 07:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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Bystander wrote on Fri, 20 July 2012 07:33
My impression is that even "Max Damage Ratio" requires the ship to get and stay within range of the most attractive primary target with at least one weapon before it can try to pick a square that maximizes the damage ratio.

They might have been trying to minimize dmg received. Lurking

Battlesims are a good tool to finetune these kinds of behaviors and test different orders like what EoF suggests. Sherlock



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 01:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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I disagree with only one word, "always". Always using the max damage orders prevents your lighter, longer-range beam/sapper ships from successfully dancing around heavier, shorter-range, more powerful ships. I'd rather keep that tactic available and suffer the occassional beam/sapper design behaving badly in a crucial battle.



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 19:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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I agree with what you say. However, I've read a lot of replies or articles in regard to this and they all end up agreeing that Max Damage and higher kill-to-ship ratio for such ships is a better tradeoff than using Max Damage Ratio with lower kill-to-ship ratio by being surprised by the behavior of said tactic.

I'm pretty sure much of this can actually be levied by extra MM. Thing is, most players don't want to have more MM, they usually want ways to have less. Plus, I would not be happy to be surprised this way in a critical battle. The Max Damage order is at least always predictable.



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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With identical beam ships (identical weight, battle speed, dp, shields, etc) in single ship combat, the ship with Max Damage Ratio will fire before Max Damage. If the ships are capable of destroying each other in 1 shot, Max Damage is often destroyed without getting a shot off.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 20:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Coyote is currently offline Coyote

 
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 17:22
With identical beam ships (identical weight, battle speed, dp, shields, etc) in single ship combat, the ship with Max Damage Ratio will fire before Max Damage. If the ships are capable of destroying each other in 1 shot, Max Damage is often destroyed without getting a shot off.


Really? What was your sample size in testing this?

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 23:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Ridiculous. Ships which are exactly the same will each have 50% chance to fire first in a given battle.


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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 23:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Coyote wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 17:55


Really? What was your sample size in testing this?


Large enough to notice some early trends.
1) Mixed range standard beamers fare better with Max Damage.
2) Beamer ships with standard beams (all the same range) shoot first twice as often with Maximize Damage Ratio (when two races present).
3) There is consistency along certain (range/battle speed) ratios.

I suspect this is all due to how battle speed is translated into movement.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 24 July 2012 23:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 20:05
Ridiculous. Ships which are exactly the same will each have 50% chance to fire first in a given battle.

Not if they have different battle orders. Go ahead and test it.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Wed, 25 July 2012 00:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Absolutely impossible.

Rules of battle dictate that two enemy ships with the same ini and same weight will each have 50% chance to fire first. This is decided randomly and last the entire battle.

If both ships are the same then battle orders cannot affect who fire first because of tech advantage or because of "battle dancing". Thus, as soon as both ships will be in range at the end of a given turn, they will be randomly assigned their order for the whole battle.

Some details can weight the balance in a way or another so it is more likely for the lightest ship to fire first. But assuming that both ships are identical, the % chance is 50%.



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Wed, 25 July 2012 00:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 20:08

2) Beamer ships with standard beams (all the same range) shoot first twice as often with Maximize Damage Ratio (when two races present).


If it'd happened on every attempt I'd say there's something to it, but I really suspect that this is random variance - especially since there's no known battle-guts mechanism that would be involved, and if there was, it'd be an unintended bug.


[Updated on: Wed, 25 July 2012 00:29]

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Wed, 25 July 2012 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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neilhoward wrote on Wed, 25 July 2012 05:08
Large enough to notice some early trends.

Please be more specific. Give numbers for these unusual results. Sherlock


Quote:
1) Mixed range standard beamers fare better with Max Damage.

Please be more specific. What are the designs? And the statistics? Sherlock


Quote:
2) Beamer ships with standard beams (all the same range) shoot first twice as often with Maximize Damage Ratio (when two races present).

This is a rather groundbreaking claim. Please give us all the details (PRTs, LRTs, exact designs, techlevels, battleorders, etc.) Sherlock


Quote:
3) There is consistency along certain (range/battle speed) ratios.

Again, please be more specific. Explain what you mean with "consistency along certain ratios". Sherlock


Quote:
I suspect this is all due to how battle speed is translated into movement.

I suspect this needs more study. Sherlock



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Wed, 25 July 2012 17:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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Lots of interesting theories being tested now by volunteers (like identical ships with different battle orders in terms of firing order), but just trying to clarify one of my earlier points.

Here is a concrete example.

Fleet A) 10 Battleships with 20 AMP each (heavy shields and armor to prevent it being more attractive than chaff)
Fleet B) 10 Battleships with 6 MegaD and 14 Sync Sap (heavy shields, no armor needed, not enough hora to be attractive)

Computers are equal on both designs.

Even if max damage ratio order malfunction 10% of the time, would anyone really recommend that Fleet B should attack with Max Damage orders and TRY as hard as possible to get to range 0? As soon as a firing round starts at range 2 or lower, Fleet B gets hit first and much harder on beam damage. Whereas max damage ratio operating properly gives Fleet B a chance to dance around at range 3 with last move and give damage without taking any.

As for using a battlesim to avoid surprises, I don't think that works well in late game. In my situation, I am forced to travel through enemy minefields to an enemy planet with gate. So I don't know how many enemies races I will encounter (battle board position unknown), don't know what type of ships will gate in (never mind have two SS opponents, so they could have cloaked fleets nearby), don't know the damage enemy ships will have, so don't know attractiveness, don't know if the starbase will be updated, etc.

So the MM involved in preventing future surprises seems too high, hence I decided to just ask questions to see if someone knew something I didn't about the battle order engine.

Looks like it may not be answered as to why max damage ratio sometimes fails to act properly, but new insights might be unveiled by EoF and Neil.

Thank you.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Wed, 25 July 2012 20:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 21:07
Absolutely impossible. nope

Rules of battle dictate that two enemy ships with the same ini and same weight will each have 50% chance to fire first (nope, this only describes ships with identical battle orders). This is decided randomly and last the entire battle (and does not have as great an effect as battle orders).

If both ships are the same then battle orders cannot affect who fire first because of tech advantage or because of "battle dancing". No, you are wrong. Battle orders determine movement, and therefore who is in range at time to fire.
Thus, as soon as both ships will be in range at the end of a given turn, they will be randomly assigned their order for the whole battle (again, only when same orders given).

Some details can weight the balance in a way or another so it is more likely for the lightest ship to fire first. (not what I describe when I say identical ships)
But assuming that both ships are identical, the % chance is 50%. (nope. not even close)

You get most of it up to battle orders, so I suggest you test it.

Coyote wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 21:27
neilhoward wrote on Tue, 24 July 2012 20:08

2) Beamer ships with standard beams (all the same range) shoot first twice as often with Maximize Damage Ratio (when two races present).


If it'd happened on every attempt I'd say there's something to it, but I really suspect that this is random variance - especially since there's no known battle-guts mechanism that would be involved, and if there was, it'd be an unintended bug.


This is supported by my first trial. I setup 30 Scout battles, 42 Frigate battles, 54 Destroyer battles, 54 Cruiser battles, all ten times each. That is every combination of single beam type to battle speed (6*9 except scouts that do not have 1/2, 2.25, or 2.5 battle speed with a beam, and FFs don't have 2.25 or 2.5) for each of the first warships. Total battles: 1800. Max Damage Ratio fired first 1200 times. Hurray for maths.

I have started the second trial. I have generated 324 2 type DD battles and 324 2 type CC battles. Next set is 1404 3 type DD battles and 1404 3 type DD battles (all 10 times each). This is taking much longer, but I am able to use a fair bit of automation. So far I am seeing variations of the same pattern based on ration of battle speed to beam type and range, but I have only studied max damage and max damage ratio.

I am not seeing anything that looks random, and I don't this is so much a bug as a aspect of the battle engine that has not been scrutinized with adequate rigour; it makes sense to me.

m.a stars got excited on Wed, 25 July 2012 13:24, but that is ok too






[Updated on: Wed, 25 July 2012 20:13]

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Thu, 26 July 2012 04:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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neilhoward wrote on Thu, 26 July 2012 02:02
I am not seeing anything that looks random, and I don't this is so much a bug as a aspect of the battle engine that has not been scrutinized with adequate rigour; it makes sense to me.

What you are seeing makes sense only if all battle orders other than Max Dmg Ratio are considered little more than useless eye candy. Nowhere in the helpfile says Initiative or Firing order depend on Battle orders, so what you describe is at the very least undocumented behavior, counterintuitive, and best described as a bug. Confused



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Thu, 26 July 2012 09:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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No. Unless by useless eye candy, you mean that battle order functionality is context dependant. I am not claiming that initiative or firing order are dependent on battle orders. If a ship is not in range when it is time to fire, it has nothing to do with initiative or random firing order.

[Updated on: Thu, 26 July 2012 09:29]

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Thu, 26 July 2012 16:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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As you know that there are times that using Max Damage will cause a ship to fire first, calling it useless is just retarded.

[Updated on: Fri, 03 August 2012 10:44] by Moderator


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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Thu, 26 July 2012 18:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Neil, get your facts straight. If both ships are identical then they will both be at range if any ship is within range of the other. For example, if both ships have range 2 beams then if the first ship can fire on the second then the second simply cannot be out of range.


[Updated on: Fri, 03 August 2012 10:44] by Moderator





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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Sun, 29 July 2012 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
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@Bystander

Normaly I would say that your Ships would stay back if they get to much damage for the damage then you do. The cleares answere would be if the next year the ships move some of the enemies slow moving ships dont come in range so your ships would do the same damage but get lesser backfire what would be the "max damage Ratio". But as it was mentionted I would normaly do a testbed for important battles. And even with this you has no 100% true how the battle will go. The battle is at least a little bit complex then the most out there hopes Razz

@neilhoward

Hi I have never heared that the Battle Orderes has to do anything to do with the order who shoots first but I have to say that I have never tested this. If you have tested it and have some files I would like to have a look at them. But at least from my expirience as player I would say it is random who shoots first with the same ship weight and INI ( Ini Total !!!).

Yes to your second call it is sometimes better to go with "max damage Ratio" to stay out of the range of range 2 Beamers with your Range 3 Beamers if they are not so heavey. But this has nothing to do with your first call where you have sayed the ship with same weapons and same weight. So dont try to use different Hypoteses in one Thread some of the players will not understand it Razz


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[Updated on: Fri, 03 August 2012 10:46] by Moderator


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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Sun, 29 July 2012 15:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nmid

 
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I have been following this thread from day1 and I admit I was confused when Neil made his claims too.
I didn't reply as EoF asked the question in my mind, asking Neil to share his data files/test beds so that we can see what tests he is running to infer his interesting observations.

As for the original purpose of the thread, I was unable to take out time to run actual numbers to see how range 2/3, ship weight, order of movement, firing order etc would affect the damage taken by the ships vs damage given, that would perhaps cause them not to move forward in order to fire their own weapons.

Edit - I.m talking about posts made prior to ash posting.


[Updated on: Fri, 03 August 2012 10:48] by Moderator





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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Mon, 30 July 2012 11:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Orange

 
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Bystander wrote on Fri, 20 July 2012 01:33
I have an example if anyone is interested in the files.

Here is a description of what happened:

My stack of 25 Enigma Pulsar battleships with Range 3 beams and Range 3 (of course) sappers moves two squares toward enemies. Primary orders are "armed ships" of which there are plenty. At this point, the nearest enemy stack is three squares away. For third move, my battleship stack reverses direction - so is now four squares away from any enemy stacks. No enemy stacks advance closer than 4 squares. Firing begins.

Impact is that my stack of battleships do not fire EITHER sappers or beams because nobody is in range. Next turn, they do move forward and get shots off.

My impression is that even "Max Damage Ratio" requires the ship to get and stay within range of the most attractive primary target with at least one weapon before it can try to pick a square that maximizes the damage ratio.


To solve this problem, you need to see other examples in order to discern a pattern. I don't have the time, but perhaps one of you can do so.

I have only seen this problem where there are lots of stacks in the battles. For example, 20 single ship stacks of beta DDs set to take advantage of the min dmg bug. These ships do not all go forward, some go backward, which limits the effectiveness of the min dmg bug tactics. However, I think it is the same mechanism that is causing this odd behavior.

The games engine seems have an algorithm to send the stacks preferentially to the blank spaces instead of occupied spaces around the original stack space. It would be great if someone could look into this and gives us a summary.



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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Tue, 31 July 2012 18:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
neilhoward

 
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ccmaster wrote on Sun, 29 July 2012 08:00


@neilhoward

Hi I have never heared that the Battle Orderes has to do anything to do with the order who shoots first but I have to say that I have never tested this. If you have tested it and have some files I would like to have a look at them. But at least from my expirience as player I would say it is random who shoots first with the same ship weight and INI ( Ini Total !!!).

Yes to your second call it is sometimes better to go with "max damage Ratio" to stay out of the range of range 2 Beamers with your Range 3 Beamers if they are not so heavey. But this has nothing to do with your first call where you have sayed the ship with same weapons and same weight. So dont try to use different Hypoteses in one Thread some of the players will not understand it Razz


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I see were there may be some confusion. I will send out some files later. Hopefully someone can explain it better.

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Re: Beamer and Sapper mixed design with Max Damage Ratio Thu, 09 August 2012 21:15 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
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Hi ,


was no bug saw the files. Mor Infos if it is OK with Bystander or after the running game.


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