Mac1 wrote on Tue, 21 February 2012 13:06

I was warned (or maybe asked ?) to not attack a planet cause he needs it for a transport route and is traveling with ships through that planet. Not that if i attack i will find his warfleet there and will break a NAP. That's a quite difference. And in short i reply "find another way to travel" I warned that i will attack, so Slim did expect my fleet going there and i was rather expecting to find at most few transport ships.

You were warned to stay away from that particular planet belonging to his ALLY and you still went ahead expecting to kill a handful civilian ships in the process?

Slim was smart enough to distrust you and send a more substantial fleet to protect his own shipping and his ALLY?

What kind of NAP was that that gave you free reign and ultimate rule about Slim's doings and goings?

Seems to me you got just what you deserved, in spades. You were accorded the mercy of a warning when you had already attacked other planets of his ALLY and you somehow believed Slim was just gonna watch you destroy his shipping routes after having the cheek to ASK HIM GO AWAY?

Lack of foresight my donkey.

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m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 00:59

Mac1 wrote on Tue, 21 February 2012 13:06 I was warned (or maybe asked ?) to not attack a planet cause he needs it for a transport route and is traveling with ships through that planet. Not that if i attack i will find his warfleet there and will break a NAP. That's a quite difference. And in short i reply "find another way to travel" I warned that i will attack, so Slim did expect my fleet going there and i was rather expecting to find at most few transport ships. You were warned to stay away from that particular planet belonging to his ALLY and you still went ahead expecting to kill a handful civilian ships in the process? Slim was smart enough to distrust you and send a more substantial fleet to protect his own shipping and his ALLY? What kind of NAP was that that gave you free reign and ultimate rule about Slim's doings and goings? Seems to me you got just what you deserved, in spades. You were accorded the mercy of a warning when you had already attacked other planets of his ALLY and you somehow believed Slim was just gonna watch you destroy his shipping routes after having the cheek to ASK HIM GO AWAY? Lack of foresight my donkey.

Mac, how long was your war with airstrips?
When/which year did you initiate the NAP with slim?
Did slim ignore any prior attacks by you on airstrips?
Did they aid airstrips earlier to your knowledge?

If I read your post right, he didn't, which lead you to believe that slim wasnt getting involved in the fight... Perhaps biding his time to prepare?

Slim took advantage of you being involved in a war, used his gates (guess he's playing an IT here), and attacked you when it was convenient for him. Nice..

Quote:

Slim was smart enough to distrust you and send a more substantial fleet to protect his own shipping and his ALLY?

Right back at ya..

What kind of NAP was that that gave slim free reign and ultimate rule about Mac's doings and goings?

Seems slim decided to bully mac into not attacking an ally's planets in the middle of a long drawn out war.

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[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2012 05:26]

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Hi all

After I have read now all the posts I want to give my meaning.
First of all you are both ( ALL) right !

Why could this be you will ask ? The answere is easy.

We speak about a NAP. Af far as we have all a different meaning of NAP both are right.

1.) Attacking a Planet of an enemy with a fleet in Orbit of someone you have an NAP.

-->a) If you point it down to the letters. You are not allowed to attack the ships it is an agression agains him


<--b) If you take it not so close it is fine. Because you could not guard enemy planets only with a scout ship. It is not your space or your planet.

2.) It is breaking a NAP if you attack a player after 1.) ?

All --> a) NO!! He already break it.

All <-- b) Absolute !


So there is no right or wrong here and all future words are a absolute wast of time.But i still want to go one a little bit


NAP's are only made for making a save Border to attack someone else before you make it an alliance or go for him after the war is finished.
So if you know that your NAP member has an alliance with your Enemy you HAVE to prepair for war or you are just a fool.
This is a WAR game

And for all of you ( special nmid and m.a@stars) this is only a game and for FUN !!!!!
So dont try to discuse something you could not point it is all to what the persones MEAN a NAP is.


ccmaster

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[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2012 13:55]

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Hi!

However words are bend and twisted, whatever explanation offered, there's a simple fact that Slimdragon is on my list of players I will deal with extreme caution in future games. I have also a mighty diplomatic leverage vs. him by just pointing other players to this topic. Now think about this: how much diplomacy will Slim be able to do in the future, when there'll always be a player saying "Slim likes to bend rules. Don't trust him"?

That's why I used word HONOR. In nowaday's society it's oldfashioned and probably obsolete, because it doesn't make profit.
But we don't play Stars! for survival or profit. Here we can still be honorable, here we still can hold our vows, respect mostly unwritten rules, and expect otheres do the same.

Whoever doubts in my words, just look at the amount of text in this topic. Bending rules to your liking will get you a short-term gain for a big long-term loss. Stars! community has a long memory.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2012 14:18]

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iztok wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 14:16

Slimdragon is on my list of players I will deal with extreme caution in future games. I have also a mighty diplomatic leverage vs. him by just pointing other players to this topic. Now think about this: how much diplomacy will Slim be able to do in the future, when there'll always be a player saying "Slim likes to bend rules. Don't trust him"?

I think you are entirely wrong on this point Iztoc. I completely disagree with your trying to ruin someones character over this incident in this game. I don't think it is such a clear case as you seem to think and I was there.

Some of us are not as good at politics and making things sound good to those of you that want to judge this. As a player in this game, I think these two should have been at war a long time ago. I've learned a lot in this game, especially after "mistaking" messages, intent, and spirit on the part of more than one player in this game. But I really don't care to or have the time to debate all of this here. Your superior attitude about it all, I just couldn't let go without any comment.

But the main thing I've learned is that politics stinks LOL And I really don't like the out-of-game politics. A game with only in-game communication would be much better, but nearly impossible to police. Inevitably if there isn't an alliance, someone is going to get hurt and feel wronged.

Hence, my preference for games with preset alliances and all else must be set to enemy. Eliminates most of the extra work that politics brings to the table and more time for cooperative strategy that I enjoy more. And I find that most of these political games are won or lost in the politics.

But I have seen many tactics, interesting designs, and strategies from playing in this game and hope to put some of what I've learned into practice in future games.

And one thing I've learned in life, is that it is always easier to judge others than yourself. Many of you that argue against what Slimdragon did would probably do the exact same thing if you were actually in the exact same situation. You may think you wouldn't, but I don't trust you on that.

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AlfredWAB wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 03:08

And one thing I've learned in life, is that it is always easier to judge others than yourself. Many of you that argue against what Slimdragon did would probably do the exact same thing if you were actually in the exact same situation. You may think you wouldn't, but I don't trust you on that.

Hmmm. I probably would, but before anyone calls me hypocritical, let me say that when asked, I would state that yes, I played using a legal NAP.

Let me further clarify....

After reading this thread, I've come to realise that I will have a "in-spirit" Nap with new players and known players I trust.
Actually with a few players with whom I've played multiple games and grown to trust, like beekeeper, I'll go beyond and be scrupulously fair with my exit clause etc, even if it hurts my own short term interests..

but with people who play using Legalesse NAPs, I'll most definitely be on the lookout to #### on them, if it's convenient for me.

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nmid wrote on Tue, 21 February 2012 22:04

Basic observation, why are you being the spokesman for slim? I like slim too... Why couldn't he post his facts here which wouldn't take more time than explaining it to you, in the first place.

Perhaps he lacks the patience to try to explain things over and over and over to people who can't be bothered to read or answer.

Quote:

Basic comment, why is the letter or the exact wording of the NAP relevant here, apart from bringing legalese into the discussion,

Because some people here, mr lawyer, keep trying to make everybody else believe that the NAP was such that whatever Slim tried was wrong and whatever Mac did was right. Such fantasies must be stopped!!

Quote:

while ignoring the fact that slim prepared a trap.

A big bad trap with a big red flag and a big front sign that said "DO NOT ENTER!"

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ccmaster wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 11:32

First of all you are both ( ALL) right !

Ahhh, if only it was that easy!

Quote:

So there is no right or wrong here and all future words are a absolute wast of time.

But someone has been trying a little character assassination behind the scenes. That is not fun!

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 06:44

nmid wrote on Tue, 21 February 2012 22:04 Basic observation, why are you being the spokesman for slim? I like slim too... Why couldn't he post his facts here which wouldn't take more time than explaining it to you, in the first place. Perhaps he lacks the patience to try to explain things over and over and over to people who can't be bothered to read or answer. Quote: Basic comment, why is the letter or the exact wording of the NAP relevant here, apart from bringing legalese into the discussion, Because some people here, mr lawyer, keep trying to make everybody else believe that the NAP was such that whatever Slim tried was wrong and whatever Mac did was right. Such fantasies must be stopped!! Quote: while ignoring the fact that slim prepared a trap. A big bad trap with a big red flag and a big front sign that said "DO NOT ENTER!"

A sign which he had no right to put up, as it was contrary to his past behaviour in the war between mac and airstrip.

You, ma.star are just being deliberately obtuse when you refuse to acknowledge that slim planned out the entire chain of events, after being told that the planet will be attacked, just like previous planets had been attacked.
The choice to defend the planet was a conscious and deliberate decision of slim.
Great planning undoubtedly, but which of course means that
Imagine my next sentence is in caps
If I'm ever going to have a nap with slim, it will be with extreme caution and with every possible event taken care of... I.e. I dont trust slim..
Caps over.

And as a matter of fact, I'll be very careful with any nap/discussion I have with you in game as well.

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iztok wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 20:16

Slimdragon is on my list of players I will deal with extreme caution in future games.

A most sensible caution, to be sure. Don't forget to add Mac, EoF and Nmid too to that list!

Quote:

I have also a mighty diplomatic leverage vs. him by just pointing other players to this topic. Now think about this: how much diplomacy will Slim be able to do in the future, when there'll always be a player saying "Slim likes to bend rules. Don't trust him"?

And to help with that I'll always be available to explain things for those poor souls in need of enlightment. And I can add all the 1st hand experience that I've had playing with him too.

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AlfredWAB wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 22:38

I think you are entirely wrong on this point Iztoc. I completely disagree with your trying to ruin someones character over this incident in this game. I don't think it is such a clear case as you seem to think and I was there. Some of us are not as good at politics and making things sound good to those of you that want to judge this. As a player in this game, I think these two should have been at war a long time ago. I've learned a lot in this game, especially after "mistaking" messages, intent, and spirit on the part of more than one player in this game. But I really don't care to or have the time to debate all of this here. Your superior attitude about it all, I just couldn't let go without any comment. But the main thing I've learned is that politics stinks LOL And I really don't like the out-of-game politics. A game with only in-game communication would be much better, but nearly impossible to police. Inevitably if there isn't an alliance, someone is going to get hurt and feel wronged. Hence, my preference for games with preset alliances and all else must be set to enemy. Eliminates most of the extra work that politics brings to the table and more time for cooperative strategy that I enjoy more. And I find that most of these political games are won or lost in the politics. But I have seen many tactics, interesting designs, and strategies from playing in this game and hope to put some of what I've learned into practice in future games. And one thing I've learned in life, is that it is always easier to judge others than yourself. Many of you that argue against what Slimdragon did would probably do the exact same thing if you were actually in the exact same situation. You may think you wouldn't, but I don't trust you on that.

+10

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 06:52] iztok wrote on Wed, 22 February 2012 20:16 Slimdragon is on my list of players I will deal with extreme caution in future games. A most sensible caution, to be sure. Don't forget to add Mac, EoF and Nmid too to that list! Quote: I have also a mighty diplomatic leverage vs. him by just pointing other players to this topic. Now think about this: how much diplomacy will Slim be able to do in the future, when there'll always be a player saying "Slim likes to bend rules. Don't trust him"? And to help with that I'll always be available to explain things for those poor souls in need of enlightment. And I can add all the 1st hand experience that I've had playing with him too.

Ah, but I don't recollect any acrimonious breaking of naps from my side.
Not sharing your entire tactical information with another race, sure... But breaking a nap? No.

.... Though there was one instance where a nap discussion dragged on for 20 odd years, before i finally attacked...but that was my first game.
I've learnt better, to wind up discussions within 2-3 years.

[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2012 20:33]

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nmid wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 02:22

A sign which he had no right to put up, as it was contrary to his past behaviour in the war between mac and airstrip.

Where in the NAP says signants cannot end it or threaten to do so?

Quote:

slim planned out the entire chain of events, after being told that the planet will be attacked, just like previous planets had been attacked.

So what? How can that make him a NAP breaker if he acted within the terms of the NAP?

Quote:

The choice to defend the planet was a conscious and deliberate decision of slim.

And I'm sure his current and future Allies will thank him for it, brave, bold, and honourable as he has shown to be.

Quote:

If I'm ever going to have a nap with slim, it will be with extreme caution and with every possible event taken care of... I.e. I dont trust slim..

Imagine, if you will, that I'm always cautioning other players against trusting you or Mac... Not that many need my reminders, of course!

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m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 07:03] nmid wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 02:22 A sign which he had no right to put up, as it was contrary to his past behaviour in the war between mac and airstrip. (1)Where in the NAP says signants cannot end it or threaten to do so? Quote: slim planned out the entire chain of events, after being told that the planet will be attacked, just like previous planets had been attacked. So what? How can that make him a NAP breaker if he acted within the terms of the NAP? Quote: The choice to defend the planet was a conscious and deliberate decision of slim. (2)And I'm sure his current and future Allies will thank him for it, brave, bold, and honourable as he has shown to be. Quote: If I'm ever going to have a nap with slim, it will be with extreme caution and with every possible event taken care of... I.e. I dont trust slim.. (3)Imagine, if you will, that I'm always cautioning other players against trusting you or Mac... Not that many need my reminders, of course!

1.
We aren't discussing exiting or coming to aid of an ally. What we are discussing is that the nap, or more to the point, the spirt... Nah, actually, slims past behaviour, that showed that he wouldn't get involved in the war.
Thus what he did was a planned breaking of the Nap after putting the other party in a state of fake complacency.
2.
No, it was a scheming and timed decision by slim to attack/defend, when he showed no such honor,brave or bold action in the previous 20-30 years of the war.
3.
As for trusting me, I repeat my "basic" question.. Where have I ever broken an nap or alliance so far?

[Updated on: Wed, 22 February 2012 20:42]

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nmid wrote on Thu, 23 February 2012 02:41

putting the other party in a state of fake complacency.

... with a quite clear advance warning about possible options and consequences.

But of course some people seem to take sincere warnings as little more than toilet paper. And then they have the cheek to complain!

Quote:

he showed no such honor,brave or bold action in the previous 20-30 years of the war.

And that makes him a NAP-breaker how?

Quote:

As for trusting me, I repeat my "basic" question.. Where have I ever broken an nap or alliance so far?

Does that matter? After reading this thread it's obvious some players don't need trifles such as actual proof!

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Darn, I should have said I haven't killed any spirits...
Lost the chance to score points.

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