Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long*
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Sun, 02 October 2011 23:55 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 02 October 2011 19:21 | Am I reading this well? You are suggesting that every players should risk having their ships blow up at W10 with QJ5 since the very first turn of the game?
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I overstate the application. Obviously it is neither necessary nor desirable to have every ship travel at w10 every year, and using boosters is certainly not a tactic for every player (some folks can't deal with Micro). If the game is a blitz (turns generate multiple years and have a 10 minute limit) then MM is to be avoided and IFE is more attractive.
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Also, the fuel usage would stop you from being able to do anything. QJ5 is not fuel efficient above W5!
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Every time a FM ship returns to a SB with surplus fuel is a mineral, resource, and fuel inefficiency. Fuel is free and unlimited at SBs. A FM PVT can make 3 full w9 jumps, but a QJ5 PVT with boosters can travel as far as the a player plans ahead. The cost difference between the FM and QJ5 PVT is less than the cost of boosters and the occasional exploding ship. Some maths are hard, but excel helps. IMNVHO IFE, NRSE, and Prop - 50% are all a waste for most games, unless you just really don't like playing Stars!
[Updated on: Mon, 03 October 2011 01:36] Report message to a moderator
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Mon, 03 October 2011 08:00 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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neilhoward wrote on Mon, 03 October 2011 05:55 | Obviously it is neither necessary nor desirable to have every ship travel at w10 every year, and using boosters is certainly not a tactic for every player
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Even with IFE and boosters and plenty of MM, not every pop transport can be coaxed to travel at warp9 or even warp8 in these first critical turns.
I want to know how you regularly get Warp10 jumps without the FM engine. Pretty please?
Quote: | Every time a FM ship returns to a SB with surplus fuel is a mineral, resource, and fuel inefficiency.
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Which is not often in my early years, but can happen...
Quote: | Fuel is free and unlimited at SBs.
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Of which you start with just the one, usually at the center of an ever-expanding circle of shipping routes. Unless you mean to add lots of cheap Docks along the way?
Quote: | A FM PVT can make 3 full w9 jumps, but a QJ5 PVT with boosters can travel as far as the a player plans ahead.
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Assuming these are *very* cheap boosters. What design do you use? Scouts? DDs? Other?
Quote: | The cost difference between the FM and QJ5 PVT is
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exactly 5I, 1G and 7 Res, with the FM costing 0 of the all-important G. What kind of hull do your boosters use that's cheaper than that?
Quote: | less than the cost of boosters and the occasional exploding ship.
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It can be argued that the cost of an exploding Colonizer is as high as the value of an average green planet times the years you could have owned it, and that's not including the costs of waging a war for it.
Quote: | Some maths are hard, but excel helps.
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Forget Excel. I want to start with the costs as stated by Stars! own item catalog, if you'll humour me.
Quote: | IMNVHO IFE, NRSE, and Prop - 50% are all a waste for most games
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Indeed, Prop cheap seems like overkill for a quite secondary tech, and many players can make do without the killer IFE+NRSE combo. But -IFE-NRSE is not all advantages as you seem to imply.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Mon, 03 October 2011 23:37 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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m.a@stars wrote on Mon, 03 October 2011 05:00 |
I want to know how you regularly get Warp10 jumps without the FM engine. Pretty please?
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I will let you figure that out for yourself.
Quote: | The cost difference between the FM and QJ5 PVT is
exactly 5I, 1G and 7 Res, with the FM costing 0 of the all-important G. What kind of hull do your boosters use that's cheaper than that?
| You forgot the 75 race wizard points of the FM cost, making quite a few hulls cheaper.
Quote: | It can be argued blah blah blah mealy mouthed namby pamby mumbling
| tl;dr
Quote: | Forget Excel. I want to start with the costs as stated by Stars! own item catalog, if you'll humour me.
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Start with the race wizard instead. Non-IFE engines can do the same thing the FM does, with a difference in degree but not class. The RW cost of IFE applied to economic growth however, does something the FM cannot: all else equal, twice the population and resources after 70 turns. (1.01^t)
Quote: | But -IFE-NRSE is not all advantages as you seem to imply.
| I do not seem to imply it. I directly state it, and I am not the first.
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Tue, 04 October 2011 04:16 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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great idea
[Updated on: Tue, 04 October 2011 04:17] Report message to a moderator
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Tue, 04 October 2011 12:53 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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neilhoward wrote on Tue, 04 October 2011 05:37 | 75 race wizard points of the FM cost, making quite a few hulls cheaper.
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Oh ho! So there's a place in the RW that makes hulls cheaper!! How could I have overlooked that!
Quote: | Non-IFE engines can do the same thing the FM does, with a difference in degree but not class.
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Indeed degree. Same as running is just a degree of the more general class "walking". Heh.
Quote: | The RW cost of IFE applied to economic growth however, does something the FM cannot: all else equal
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But all else is not equal, because there's the FM making it definitely as non-equal as can be.
Quote: | I directly state it, and I am not the first.
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Fine, then. Where's your 25k+ by 2450 testbeds backing up your non-empty words?
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Tue, 04 October 2011 21:03 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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Yep. And most of them were better players than yours truly.
[Updated on: Fri, 07 October 2011 21:35] Report message to a moderator
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Fri, 07 October 2011 02:40 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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There have been some requests for a demonstration of using boosters, so I started testing last month. I am able to get a decent race to 25k without IFE, so I am using a handicap to demonstrate the viability of eschewing it.
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OBRM, NAS, LSP, RS
0.25g - 3.92g (17 - 83)
-132șC, 132șC (17 - 83)
62mR - 90mR
18%
1000
10, 9, 15
Factories cost 1 kT less of Germanium to build
9, 4, 15
Weapons Research Costs 50% less
Construction Research Costs standard amount
left over point set to defences
Parameters -
Small, Normal, Distant, ACC BBS, CPFA
1x each Expert Robotoid, Cybertron, & Macinti
Generate universe with I&G HW min conc near at 30
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I will post a link later for full turn archives, and my spreadsheets to show how I use/justify w10, and boosters. Hopefully some people will point out ways to improve fuel management. Every game should have more ships exploding.
Thanks for your work on the Overall Planet Calculator BTW.
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Re: NRSE, IFE, and Prop Cost *very long* |
Tue, 15 November 2011 21:05 |
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neilhoward | | Commander | Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008 Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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OK, I have been doing my homework and I must admit that the cases I make for both risky w10 and -ife or -ife,-nrse, are much more overstated than I thought. Both risky w10 and eschewing ife can pay off with big dividends, but their applications are deeply dependant on other race parameters, type of game ~(size*density/number of players), and difference of play styles.
I still believe that first: risky w10 (if accommodated by race configuration & whole-game strategy) can help *EVERYONE*, but only on a trip by trip basis.
Likewise, *EVERYONE* can benefit from using boosters (even WITH ife).
And last: depending on game type, playstyle, and other racial considerations, -IFE,-IFE/NRSE is not only viable but should be recommended.
So I have 3 projects to finish:
1 Risk/reward calculator for risky w10
2 Comprehensive guide to boosters
3 ife/nrse/ce matrix
I should have working models by the 6th, if I am diligent.
For #3, I don't have enough maths to know what maths I am missing
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