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NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 16:42 Go to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
Lt. Junior Grade

Messages: 440
Registered: May 2003
Location: Bristol
 I had an interesting in game message recently where a player cancelled our NAP and in the 5 year exist period I pinged one of his planets with an unarmed scout.

He said this was an attack and against the terms of the NAP and was genuinely put out by it - claiming I did it to get to know his ship designs. (I did it to make sure there were no hostile fleets so I would know where to gate my defensive fleets).
I do have pen scans but as you all know nothing beats actually being present to be sure you dont miss anything.

Anyway this got me thinking, what is exceptable behaviour when exiting a NAP?

I would
Set them to enemy (this would mean any ships that tried to orbit my planets would be killed)
Send scouts into their area
ping any planets I was worried would be a launching point for attacking me
Ping any planets I was considering attacking.
Sweep any minefields in my space.
Lay minefields in their spance

I would also probably
Sweep minefields protecting worlds I was planning on attacking
Kill sweepers that were actively clearing my minefields
Kill scouts in my area
Launch packets that would impact when the NAP was over

I wouldnt
Put my armed ships into orbit over his worlds
Kill his minelayers laying around his worlds
Kill large fleets of his
Kill transports
Bomb worlds
Packet worlds hiting before end of NAP

What do you lot do when NAPs are running down?

Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 19:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Location: Heart of Texas
 I don't think there is an "exit period" with special rules. There is either NAP or no NAP. The 5 years is an official notice, maybe according to agreement, that the NAP will end after that time. Until the 5 years is up, there is still an NAP.

I think of it as a contract. The terms of the contract apply until the contract is ended. That there is a required notice to exit a contract, doesn't mean the contract changes before that end date. You lawyers really need to quit bending the rules or you will never ever get high ratings in the public opinion polls. Laughing

BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 19:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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 An NAP is an agreement between two players. It is purely on honnor. Thus, you cannot expect someone to actually follow it to the letter.

It is really a matter of perception. In your case I would really be insulted to be told I've broken the exit clause by pinging a world with a chaff. If that guy think it is an attack then he's only out of his mind.

If you ask me he's simply looking to drop your exit period because he wants to attack you right away.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 21:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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 Many players stick to the letter and forget about "honor" Rolling Eyes

I had one egregious case where my erstwhile ally set me to "neutral" so his mines would kill my transports. He invented some poor excuse for it, so I threatened to cancel our NAP *and* sent a chaff to every gate of his in my space, as allowed by the NAP. Sherlock

And guess what, his other ally had gated a big cloaked fleet to one of them, which attacked my lone chaff, and my "ally" helped them! Their excuse? Saying it was *I* who had set them to "enemy" (despite my having proof of the contrary) thus voiding the NAP without warning. Confused

The best part is they never told me that until *after* their massive surprise attack on my gathering point near the border. 2 Guns

So much for careful wording and lawyering!

joseph wrote on Sat, 06 August 2011 22:42

Launch packets that would impact when the NAP was over

Depending on the wording of the NAP itself, that could probably be construed as "hostile behavior while the NAP was still active" Shocked

So many Stars, so few Missiles!

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 21:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
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Messages: 1343
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 This is the sort of rules lawyering that pisses people off.

The NAP doesn't end until the NAP ends. Which is at the end of the 5y notice period. So any actions which were agressive during the the NAP are still agressive during the 5y notice period.

Which of the following were you allowed to do during the NAP? Deal
Quote:

Set them to enemy
any ships that tried to orbit my planets would be killed
Send scouts into their area
ping any planets I was worried would be a launching point for attacking me
Ping any planets I was considering attacking.
Sweep any minefields in my space.
Lay minefields in their spance
Sweep minefields protecting worlds I was planning on attacking
Kill sweepers that were actively clearing my minefields
Kill scouts in my area
Launch packets

None?
How many did you do during [the last 5y of] the NAP? Deal
How many did they do during [the last 5y of] the NAP? Deal

Who's guilty then?


What would I do? Stick to the agreement. Often my agreements allows for

  • scouting. so pinging is allowed though not usually "parking"
  • sweep minefields back to the border
  • altered conditions during the exit clause

my 2 cents

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 21:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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Unless specifically stating in your NAP that you cannot scout with unarmed ships you did nothing wrong in my opinion.

I would never agree to a NAP that puts my Empire at risk in any way. I think everyone is expected to scout no matter what unless something is stated in the NAP. Any smart player would scout unless your super weak and afraid to get stomped. NAP means None Aggression Pack!!! In no way is unarmed chaff Aggression. I would send armed chaff to every planet to ANYONE near my planets. 99% of us know 1 chaff is not going to kill anything.
If he has ships in your range then you have every right to scout his designs. He should have had his ships gathering well behind the borders of your planets. Yes you had pen scans but of course sending a ship to ping is best. For all you know there is 500 cloaked Nubs at your door step so you must check.

As far as I am concerned anyone that doesn't tell me and puts an armed fleet in a warp 10 jump away from any of my planets is about to break the NAP or is breaking the NAP.
If someone complains because you sent an unarmed ship to their planet that is weak excuse.
Please PM me the name if he does not honor your NAP or exit clause if anything dishonorable goes down.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 22:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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slimdrag00n wrote on Sat, 06 August 2011 20:51

NAP means None Aggression Pack!!!

No. Those are smokeless cigarettes. Very Happy


BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 22:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Quote:

NAP means None Aggression Pack!!!

Exactly.

And pinging planets for intel is not aggressive but defensive in nature... Especially when you know the deal is off and you're in the exit clause years. You need to know what will be in front of you when the time is up.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sat, 06 August 2011 22:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sat, 06 August 2011 21:27

Quote:

NAP means None Aggression Pack!!!

Exactly.

And pinging planets for intel is not aggressive but defensive in nature... Especially when you know the deal is off and you're in the exit clause years. You need to know what will be in front of you when the time is up.

Not exactly. Close maybe. Rolling Eyes
Crossing borders and spying on other planets is aggressive no matter how you want to twist the wording. If I were your neighbor I would cross your property line and come into your house unannounced and armed, and search for weapons. Then when you objected I would just say to you: Quit bitching, I'm only defending myself. Cool

BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sun, 07 August 2011 01:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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 My neighbors are not off to conquer the galaxy and kill me. And if it was the case and he would do that, I'd totally shotgun him before even asking what he's doing there...

... Your example really don't apply.

Edit: Note, however, that I would consider someone who still have an NAP with me and who ping me regularly as a sign of aggression. But in this case the NAP is already off and in the exit clauses. Completely justified as it is really not the same situation.

[Updated on: Sun, 07 August 2011 01:31]



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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sun, 07 August 2011 01:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Messages: 835
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Location: Heart of Texas
 LOL It was an analogy. Hoping maybe the message sinks in. Not to be taken literally.
Consider this then: would sending a spy into another country be considered an act of aggression? I believe it is considered so universally. Neighbor, country, planet... the act is interpreted in similar fashion with respect to breaking the laws of home, country, planet. Trespassing, spying, without permission. Even more so if there is an agreement to not do that during the period of the agreement.

And unless agreed upon in advance, it's a violation of the terms, laws, etc.

And stop saying that notification of ending NAP, as per terms of agreement, ends the NAP, and it goes into an "exit" mode. It's a notice that it will END in x number of years. A span of years that was previously agreed upon. The NAP continues until it has ended in x number of years.

Just because you go into paranoid-schizo-panic mode when you are told your agreement is ending, doesn't mean you can now change the terms of the agreement and start doing things you didn't do before. If you do that, then you are the one breaking the contract, instead of doing the correct thing and waiting until the NAP actually is concluded. And there will be consequences.

[Updated on: Sun, 07 August 2011 01:59]



BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sun, 07 August 2011 03:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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 The default term of an NAP don't count pings on your worlds when you are in the exit clause. Among a lot of other things.

If you like to make custom NAP with a hundred special clauses it is your choice. But a basic NAP don't cover that.

A basic NAP is this: you and your trade partner agree not to attack each other. That's all. Nice and sweet.

What it doesn't mean: that you will suddenly pull out all your ships already in their territory (not obligatory armed ships. It is common when two players sign NAPs to see scouts from each power to suddenly go in each other territory), that you will suddenly stop thinking about sending more ships (especially the cloaked scouts with pen scanners) or that you will suddenly stop even thinking that the trade partner will never ever break their word and go over the agreement. If you really want that to happen then you should create special clauses in your NAP.

If one of the parties drop the NAP and activate the exit clause then it is obvious that one of the parties intend to attack soon. As such, intel is very important and only fools would not do what they have to do make sure they won't be attacked. Or attack blind.

It thus make perfect sense for both sides to do that. Not doing so would be a grave mistake.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sun, 07 August 2011 05:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LittleEddie is currently offline LittleEddie

 
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Quote:

The default term of an NAP don't count pings on your worlds when you are in the exit clause. Among a lot of other things.


That's why you should include it in a NAP, I do

My basic NAP is

I will not visit your planets/area with any ship carrying a weapon other then 1 X-Ray laser.

If I'm SD I add something about Mine Field.

Mine Fields is what I do, Your ship being destroyed by my mine field is not a act of Aggression. But I will not build any mine fields in your area or greater then 1/2 the distance between any of our two planets.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Sun, 07 August 2011 17:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Sun, 07 August 2011 17:36

The default term of an NAP don't count pings on your worlds when you are in the exit clause. Among a lot of other things.


Your NAPs, maybe. Shocked

My NAPs don't have any different rules for the exit clause period.

Quote:

If you like to make custom NAP with a hundred special clauses it is your choice. But a basic NAP don't cover that.


Whip You don't get to claim that your NAP conditions are "more basic" when you're arguing for special rules in the exit period.

Quote:

If one of the parties drop the NAP and activate the exit clause then it is obvious that one of the parties intend to attack soon. As such, intel is very important and only fools would not do what they have to do make sure they won't be attacked. Or attack blind.

It thus make perfect sense for both sides to do that. Not doing so would be a grave mistake.


Have you perchance heard of the Prisoner's Dilemma?

You might as well say that as all players want to win, NAPs are a grave mistake.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 05:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Messages: 809
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Quote:

You don't get to claim that your NAP conditions are "more basic" when you're arguing for special rules in the exit period.
I don't though. You are. When I have special rules to add to an NAP (which is 99% of the time) I have no problem stating them before hand with the player in question. But if it wasn't specifically stated? Why would it enter the NAP by default? It should not.

Quote:

You might as well say that as all players want to win, NAPs are a grave mistake.

I'm not stupid enough to actually believe that most players are there only to look good and have a good time around a beer in the local world pub. Wink

If you want to win, you have to attack. If you enter an NAP, it is usually a strategical maneuver to gain something. Time, trust, a safe front... Something. Make perfect sense in the term of a game to do that and then drop the hammer on the player in question when it is time.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
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 Trust is a great thing. Safety too. Anyone breaking a NAP on me can safely trust that they'll become my #1 target! 2 Guns Hit over head

Oh, and I reserve the right to decide when my NAPs have been broken! Pirate

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 07:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
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 Hi!

Joseph, don't bother with what your neighbour says. He'll always do what the wants. If he wants war, there's nothing you can do. If he wants "cassus belli", he'll get it. But until the NAP runs out you and him're still bound to its agreed "limitations".

What you do on YOUR side of the border is your bussines only. You have 5 years to get ready for an agression. Use them well.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Mon, 08 August 2011 07:43]

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 09:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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iztok wrote on Mon, 08 August 2011 07:39

Hi!
You have 5 years to get ready for an agression. Use them well.

BR, Iztok




Try to be ready in 2 years. The NAP is an honor thing to follow. They can choose to not go along with it and attack you when ever they want, thus just be ready for anything.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 10:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
joseph is currently offline joseph

 
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Messages: 440
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 Thanks for all your comments
First off I would like to say that the player in question had already called off the NAP and we were working down our 5 year exit.
Im perfectly happy with his behaviour.
We are now a few years after the NAP and are amicably bombing the hell out of each others worlds.

The thing is when we agreed a NAP we said "Lets have a NAP, 5 year exit clause"
We didn't draw up ANY further details.

So the problem was not defining what is "Aggression"

Oh and the people who say there was no difference between the NAP and the X years exit period
There are a number of actions I would expect in the final year of an exit period that would cause me to ask my ally what he was doing if he did them in the normal NAP time
(sweeping minefields leaps to mind, if I had a $ for every player I saw sweeping fields in the last turn of an exit clause so they could hit worlds in the first year of war I would have enough to buy a Shiny New Nubian).

Maybe I should draw up a "Standard NAP agreement" and email it off every time I have a NAP

Joseph
"Can burn the land and boil the sea. You cant take the Stars from me"

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Mon, 08 August 2011 21:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
magic9mushroom is currently offline magic9mushroom

 
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Eagle of Fire wrote on Mon, 08 August 2011 19:11

Quote:

You don't get to claim that your NAP conditions are "more basic" when you're arguing for special rules in the exit period.
I don't though. You are. When I have special rules to add to an NAP (which is 99% of the time) I have no problem stating them before hand with the player in question. But if it wasn't specifically stated? Why would it enter the NAP by default? It should not.


Your proposal:

One set of rules for NAP
One set of rules for NAP exit period
One set of rules once NAP is over

My proposal:

One set of rules for NAP
One set of rules once NAP is over

You are the one arguing for a more complicated arrangement.

Quote:

Quote:

You might as well say that as all players want to win, NAPs are a grave mistake.

I'm not stupid enough to actually believe that most players are there only to look good and have a good time around a beer in the local world pub. Wink

If you want to win, you have to attack. If you enter an NAP, it is usually a strategical maneuver to gain something. Time, trust, a safe front... Something. Make perfect sense in the term of a game to do that and then drop the hammer on the player in question when it is time.


Like I said, if you don't want to adhere to an NAP and not take aggressive action until the exit is over "because it would be silly to not prepare", then by the same logic you shouldn't make an NAP in the first place, "because it would be silly to not prepare".

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Tue, 09 August 2011 00:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Void is currently offline Void

 
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BlueTurbit wrote on Sat, 06 August 2011 22:58

Consider this then: would sending a spy into another country be considered an act of aggression? I believe it is considered so universally.

Aggression is a continuum, although if you have fully articulated what aggression means to you, then sure, you can say definitively whether someone has acted with aggression or not.

To your specific question, countries do this all the time, and don't make much of a fuss about it. Oh sure, every once in a while it'll be a big deal, but for 99% of the cases, it's merely a blip on the radar.

I would further contend that spying helps keep people out of wars. When countries don't have insight into what their enemies are doing, they think the worst. I'm sure some history buffs can think of one or two examples...

Cheers,
Void

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Tue, 09 August 2011 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Eagle of Fire

 
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Quote:

You are the one arguing for a more complicated arrangement.

I'm not arguing. I didn't even propose anything. I'm just stating facts.

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Tue, 09 August 2011 08:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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 Don't know about facts. In more than a decade experience in dozens of games, I have had mostly good fortune with NAPs in the past. Most have followed the agreements. Maybe the veterans of old, as a whole, had a higher code of honor than the newer players? For better or worse, times change, I guess. Smile

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Tue, 09 August 2011 09:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BlueTurbit

 
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Messages: 835
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Quote:

Aggression is a continuum, although if you have fully articulated what aggression means to you, then sure, you can say definitively whether someone has acted with aggression or not.

"Espionage or spying involves an individual obtaining information that is considered secret or confidential without the permission of the holder of the information."
Quote:

To your specific question, countries do this all the time, and don't make much of a fuss about it. Oh sure, every once in a while it'll be a big deal, but for 99% of the cases, it's merely a blip on the radar.

"Nearly every society has very strict laws concerning espionage, and the penalty for being caught is often death."
Quote:

I would further contend that spying helps keep people out of wars. When countries don't have insight into what their enemies are doing, they think the worst. I'm sure some history buffs can think of one or two examples...

"Espionage is usually part of an institutional effort by a government or corporation, and the term is most readily associated with state spying on potential or actual enemies primarily for military purposes."

BlueTurbit Country/Rock

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Re: NAPs exits and actions when exiting NAPs Tue, 09 August 2011 11:14 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
slimdrag00n is currently offline slimdrag00n

 
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Again in my opinion if someone doesn't mention that an unarmed ship sent to one of their planets is aggression it is not, especially if the NAP has no outline of any kind. The NAP then never prohibited the use of unarmed ships being sent out. It is everyone's duty to keep spies out. Certainly nothing to go to war over. With no outline someone could say that everything and anything they didn't like was aggression. No outline Nap is Next to useless. Same as saying lets not war and then going their own separate ways and both sides could be doing things aggressive and not even know it.

Is sending in any ship with no guns to an empire aggression? Maybe if you base it on the opinion of the guy who does not want to be scouted and has no real written treaty. He had his fingers crossed and only hoped everything would be peaches and roses.

No empire or country has ever went to war because they found a spy in their mists. The Spy is almost always killed when caught and everyone moves on.

I am sure if we made a poll we would see different opinions. I would feel bad for the people who say they don't scout any border planets. Its something that just needs to be done by good players and should be expected.

I know that LittleEddie and his race Peaces has sent many scouts and has continued to try to heavily scout my empire the Amazons. Sometimes with 40 scouts at once. I send in skirmishers and I blow them all up. We have no NAP and never spoke but sense neither of us have tried to kill any other ships or bases we are neutral and not at war. It is just an understanding we have.

Some players have that understanding without speaking, some don't.

I'm in my 3rd online game which may not be saying much to some. I have learned scouting is also used Defensively and not always aggressively. For some it may be hard to distinguish between them.

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Looking for a practice duel.
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