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BlueTurbit wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 08:17

What? Are you talking about the Rings game you hosted years ago? I played in that game. I was one of the team mentors, and Ashlyn was another. Don't remember the others. There were four teams with three players. One mentor and two inexperienced per team. I don't remember any such thing as an h-file merger or any merged h files on our team in that game. Or any game I have ever played in. In those days in team games we always exchanged m files, and h files if updates were needed, and passwords, and viewed each team player's turns one at a time on Stars.

There were teams that used Wumpus' merge for that game.

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donjon wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 08:31

...There were teams that used Wumpus' merge for that game.

Yes, I read that post here earlier, but missed the game name, and I don't recall our team having that option.
Bastards... no wonder that game was tougher than expected. LOL
Maybe that explains some things now.
I remember there were lots of regens in that game. Maybe that little tool was causing issues?

Rings Mentored
Turn 2405 restored from backup on Aug. 04 2004 13:47 GMT.
Turn 2406 restored from backup on Aug. 05 2004 23:06 GMT.
Turn 2439 restored from backup on Nov. 03 2004 14:46 GMT.

There were more, but I didn't save all the turns.

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donjon wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 08:31

BlueTurbit wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 08:17 What? Are you talking about the Rings game you hosted years ago? I played in that game. I was one of the team mentors, and Ashlyn was another. Don't remember the others. There were four teams with three players. One mentor and two inexperienced per team. I don't remember any such thing as an h-file merger or any merged h files on our team in that game. Or any game I have ever played in. In those days in team games we always exchanged m files, and h files if updates were needed, and passwords, and viewed each team player's turns one at a time on Stars. There were teams that used Wumpus' merge for that game.

HIya, not sure why there were so many regens... likely the problem was due to somebody using the wrong version of stars. History does not affect gens.

Yes, I dug into my mail history... I got a couple of notes from Wumpus giving me a heads-up on the issue. I figured that in a game of collaboration merging history makes sense

regards,
les

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[Updated on: Fri, 18 February 2011 11:02]

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Hi ,


well it was wumpus who whant to test it and if I remember right we merged 3 times the h-Files.
But it is only a little timesaver for team games.But if I remember right there was some trouble with it and we where then several years without H-Files
So best is to save your original H-File not overright it.

At all I find a merging H-File good for team games because it saves you time. But because the H-Files have some more data then the Planets ( the only thing interresting) there was some trouble dont know if it is fixed today.



ccmaster

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ccmaster wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 10:08

Hi , well it was wumpus who whant to test it and if I remember right we merged 3 times the h-Files. But it is only a little timesaver for team games.But if I remember right there was some trouble with it and we where then several years without H-Files So best is to save your original H-File not overright it. ccmaster...

LOL No good deed goes unpunished!

So, using an h file merger might cause AutoHost and game issues.

[Updated on: Fri, 18 February 2011 11:14]

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ah well, what is done is done.

And as far as i'm concerned you chose not to use the facility.
The fact that you didn't know about it is inexcusable.
It is/was your problem, Blue

CC was helping Wump because Wump was trying to iron out some endemic problems... the h file format has id problems especially in merging.

The resolution I am not certain of... ie, whether or not the facility ever went beyond alpha.

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donjon wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 10:18

ah well, And as far as i'm concerned you chose not to use the facility. The fact that you didn't know about it is inexcusable.

Is that what they call an oxymoron?

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The Topic

XyliGUN wrote on Fri, 11 February 2011 19:44

I need an input/comments/suggestions and especially objections if any from the field on possible h files merger tool. What I'm think of is a simple merger.exe, that being run against two h files (like "merger game.h1 game.h2") will read all the planets stat data from the first one and append it to the second one (currently only planets data, but things like Designs and Scores could be also merged later). Let's imagine I can create such a tool (I have just merged one of the planet data from one h file to the another h file manually, so in general it works). Can someone imagine any cheating possiblity there if such a tool will be publically available (with no sources of cause)?

@ Xyligun

the only think you need from the other team is the information of the Planets. A way to merge *.P* files already exist. One is notebook a nice tool.
And if you have the Planets you have only to write something to check your habs with it.
I have a exelsheet doing this at the moment.And seems to work fine so far.
Makes a little bit work but helps a lot with scanning.

ccmaster

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Wow! While answers like that was expected, I'm still surprised... so much surprised.
Disclaimer: I don't want to offense somebody, but if you think I'm... I beg you pardon. But here is what I think:

BlueTurbit

Yes there are. As already mentioned, it would be easier for cheater to hack your file and possibly get important knowledge (did you say password?), versus having to break the Stars code to try the same. The laws of probability? The more difficult it is for everyone to get access, the more difficult it is for cheaters to get access.

Somewhere in august 2010, when I tired again with MM in my just finished game (for some reasons and with the approve from the host at the end of the game my team consists of me only, i.e. I was playing alone by 3 players (WM, IT, HE), in year 2528 it was totally 121 planets, 561 fleets, and so on...), I've come up with the idea to get Stars! decryption and file structure to create some sort of StarsPlayerAPI, which then could be used for things like "order as much ships of design X as possible" to reduce time required to handle such a big empires. There is no fun in clicking on each of your planet ordering stuff.

So, I start looking thru the forum trying to collect data of the file structures and encryption (you can have a look thru my posts starting from about August). Nobody gives encryption to me (and I don't even ask somebody of it, since it clearly understandable that nobody will give it to me), but I finally got it. Where did I get from? Well, it wasn't Stars decompiling, no... I found it here on the forum, and it was MUCH MORE EASY to find it than any hack. So, when you said that you afraid that merger would be easier to decompile than Stars!... it really sounds funny - potential cheated just needs to be cleaver enough to find it, you can't even imagine how easy it's to get encryption if you have a minimum software development skills...

BlueTurbit

Steal? Freudian slip or wolf in sheep's clothing? When passwords get involved in such a tool I already have suspicions.

It's just a word. I was trying to show that you cannot take any information from the m/h file untill you know password. Yes I can get any information from the m/h files without password, but merger do password veification, just because I'd like to avoid situation where playing host, having access to m files, can export all the data into his own h file. That's the reason to verify password. And I guess it's resonable. Also you don't have to provide your password to your teamamte to merge your h file, instead your teammate can give you his h file and you will merge info into it and then return h file back.

BlueTurbit

Remind me not to play in games you are playing in.

I'm not playing in any single game at the moment and I'm not going to until some sort of the turn verifyer will be introduced to prevent cheating.
But it's a pity to hear things like that, I'm not looking for the ways to cheat, what I'm looking for is a ways to improve the way we play in Stars!

BlueTurbit

This tool would give advantages to players

Yep, as well as any other tool, and what? It sounds like that: pls, don't use excel, since it gives you advantage, also don't use starscalc, since it calcs it for you and it's harder to play againist you for those who don't use it... and so on. Sorry, but this sounds unresonable...

BlueTurbit, I'm aware of the scripts you proposed some time ago in the Academy, these scripts can click Stars! automatically. They could be valuable (i.e. time saver), but to be fair I don't think it's enough, since it doesn't take real resources you have on the planet into account, and IMHO it's tooooo complex and not effective from resources standpoint to use them in real game. Btw, it's funny BlueTurbit, but in that thread you were arguing with Eagle on whether Stars! players needs to have tools for MM or not. And it looks for me that here you are arguing on the opposite side...

donjon

What if Wumpus gave Ron the code for the merge app. And then Ron made it available to autohost players if they wis

[Updated on: Fri, 18 February 2011 19:38]

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BlueTurbit

Oh well, just publish the damn thing then. No more security blankets in games. We'll see what happens. Good or bad things. And if things go bad in games, we have you to blame. LOL

Would like to be a beta tester? LOL

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XyliGUN wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 20:53

ccmaster When I see that it works fine I will ask the writer to make this think public. OK, what if I state that my tool is ready and works fine? Should I make it public?

Hi ,

not sure if you should make it public. I have now real the full "Topic" and if I see it right you are using m-Files and PW for your programm.
I think merging h-Files would be a good think at all.

Have your m-files and PW around is not good.

So maybe if you explain me how this works I could say somethink more to it. Maybe it is only my bad english:P

You also could E-Mail me or PM if you dont want to write everything here in the forum.


ccmaster


PS : you should wait until you make something public what could destroy the game ( even if you dont want this or dont think someone could us it like this )

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Ron

What about if the tool was web-based? Web page interface, field for player password, upload .h files, click button to merge. What if AutoHost itself could merge team info into all team files, so team members could automatically see planets etc as they are found? I don't know if that is possible, but it sure sounds fun!

Ron, currently you are the only person who have a copy of the tool and you are welcome to use the tool on SAH. IMHO, automerge for teams on SAH is almost perfect idea and the only problem here is that game host shouldn't have access to settings on which turns needs to be merged (teams needs to be defined in some way). If this could be controlled or at least logged, that would be great!

[Updated on: Sun, 20 February 2011 04:42]

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XyliGUN wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 14:53

ccmaster the only think you need from the other team is the information of the Planets. A way to merge *.P* files already exist. One is notebook a nice tool. And if you have the Planets you have only to write something to check your habs with it. I have a exelsheet doing this at the moment.And seems to work fine so far. Makes a little bit work but helps a lot with scanning. Guys, it's sounds like you suggesting to use abacus instead of computer: * you suggesting to press Alt+Tab to switch beetwen teammate turns, to see planet stats instead of just see it in your own turn * you suggesting to use starscalc to calc planet value instead of just have it visible (greens/yellow/reds) in your Stars! client * you suggesting to go into your teamamte turn each time you want to look onto enemy design that your teammate just scans What you suggesting is to spend more time! Why? Would that be a cheating to just look onto the same data that I'm already have in any case in my teammates turn? I'd say no, this is not a cheating at all, otherwise you should treat notebook and even starscalc as a cheating too.

XyliGun states it perfectly.. Why would I use multiple 3rd party tools, which will require multiple inputs and settings adjustments of my habs etc, when I can see everything in my game itself.
PLEASE release this !! Even a server side app would be fantastic.
Wondering how you would handle the starting h exchanges between non-allies, who trade information... I guess for that p files would still be the best option.

Quote:

ccmaster When I see that it works fine I will ask the writer to make this think public. OK, what if I state that my tool is ready and works fine? Should I make it public?

Sooner the better !!

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XyliGUN wrote on Fri, 18 February 2011 20:53

OK, what if I state that my tool is ready and works fine? Should I make it public?

Any chances of adding an "include just this info" mode? Or a "don't include this info" mode?

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XyliGUN wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 10:08

Features: Long answer. Let's talk specific about the data that stored in the h files: 1. Short player definitions - player id, singular and plural names - stored here for each player met) 2. Ships/Starbases Designs 3. Planets Stat - owner id original/actual grav/temp/rad, concentarations, estimated population + year of the scan - stored here for each planet scanned 4. Player Scores (for your race only if no PPS enabled, and for each race in case of PPS enabled) 5. Messages filter ------(Snip)--------------- * Merging planets stat, like concentrations, original/actual values, planet owner, starbase design (you will see the planets that you didn't yet scanned, but your teammate did) * Merging known designs (you will see the same designs that your teammate can see including his existing designs and enemy designs known to him) * Merging progress timelines (you will see your and your teammate progress timeline in your turn, like if PPS were enebaled for your team) Usage: StarsHistoryMerger.exe game.mX game.hX game.hY passwordX where: game.mX, game.hX - source turn m & h files game.hY - target turn h file passwordX - password from game.mX What it does? It reads data from specified source (m, h) and target (h) turn files, merges it and write result into the target h file. It does verify the password provided and no data will be written if password is incorrect (so you have to know source turn password to steal the data).

As m.a asked, can we disable/select which of the 5 options we would like to share? It would be a nice option
From what I'm understanding of the run command line, this is not possible right now


@blue turbit.. I don't see any nefarious intentions of Xyli or his app.
StarsHistoryMerger.exe game.mX game.hX game.hY passwordX
= StarsHistoryMerger.exe "Mine".mX "Mine".hX "his".hY "MyPassX"
so I don't see where the password of the other person is being asked.
All that is being done is that the target h file "his.hy* is being read and then re-written into a new "his.hy" file.

The password is to ensure that my data isn't "stolen", in case someone get's hold of my M file and H file.

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[quote title=nmid wrote on Sun, 20 February 2011 08:02]

XyliGUN wrote on Wed, 16 February 2011 10:08

@blue turbit.. I don't see any nefarious intentions of Xyli or his app.

I don't either, but then again, I never saw all those other cheats until after they were discovered. Tell me, who here expected what happened with Micha here would happen? So much for foresight, huh?

As a matter of precaution I am always cautious when players have knowledge of encrypted file and program data beyond the normal range of players, and apply that to games. Encrypting was done for good reason, and over the years has helped to keep the Stars game in fairly good shape.

What's that old saying? An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

Yes there are other tools out there. But they don't alter game files. They mostly just use information from files which Stars provides for the player to save and pass around at his own choosing (map, fleet, and planet files), and they create the combined data in their own files. It's more work, but it's safer for game integrity.

I just don't like the idea of manipulating encrypted files. If for no other reason than there are no longer patches coming out to fix problems, like in the past when cheats were found.

Does anyone remember the free pop memory trick? It was also fixed in the JRC4 patch, with some inconvenience for the SS race, and a couple other bugs added. Even Jeff himself has been quoted saying that fixing bugs sometimes adds new bugs. Because of the complexity of the Stars code, I would guess.

So why am I cautious about people manipulating encoded file data? Study the history here. LOL

Flashback:
I remember catching one guy using that free pop in a game hosted by Ashlyn. It was early in game and it was good fortune that I was Joat and had a pen scout in range of the planet where it happened. I noticed the huge gain in pop the next turn on an empty planet. Seeing a large fleet of empty freighters headed there caught my attention. After game host and Ron reviewed files, the cheater was exposed and kicked out.

So, with my experience with cheats in several games, put me down as more cautious and suspicious than your average rookie here. Everybody has their own opinions, and right or wrong, these are mine, based on my own experiences with Stars this past decade.

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