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34851 @ 2450
Found *no* natural greens

Badly mistimed my expansion, lost a lot of pop growth. Also mistimed ceasing colony ship building, I could've made use of a lot more reds than I did.

None of the 5 yellows I turned green managed to finish building their factories in time (one of them didn't even finish terraforming, it started so ferociously red

Germ crunched through the entire game.


CA is not the best PRT for this environment. Anyone want to tell me what PRT I used?

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[Updated on: Fri, 21 August 2009 08:57]

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Ended up with 32507@2450. I was a little to lazy, tho, and even had 9 greens left to colonize at the end. Probably could have MM another 10-15k out of it, if I had taken more than 10 minutes.

-Matt

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mlaub wrote on Sat, 22 August 2009 04:30

Ended up with 32507@2450. I was a little to lazy, tho, and even had 9 greens left to colonize at the end. Probably could have MM another 10-15k out of it, if I had taken more than 10 minutes. -Matt

Found a universe with some greens next to the HW or something? That's a nice score for CA.

EDIT:
Hrm, yeah. Maybe CA really is better than IS for this setup. 44438 @ 2450, just hit F9 for the last 10 turns. Bad race too, nowhere near enough factories to build the mines (mine settings 10/3/10 to build 25 factories... lol ) - didn't even finish the HW, hahaha.

14 greens popped up in the last 10 years, . Finished TT25 and TT30 in that no-micro burst. You wouldn't have time to really make much use of anything that needed TT25 or more to make green though. There's certainly time to build facs on TT20 worlds though.

60k looks to be a accessible target.

[Updated on: Sat, 22 August 2009 08:46]

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Dogthinkers wrote on Fri, 21 August 2009 22:13

mlaub wrote on Sat, 22 August 2009 04:30 Ended up with 32507@2450. I was a little to lazy, tho, and even had 9 greens left to colonize at the end. Probably could have MM another 10-15k out of it, if I had taken more than 10 minutes. -Matt Found a universe with some greens next to the HW or something? That's a nice score for CA.

Nope. No greens to start off. Think I had to get TT15 to get more. That was my first race, and first universe. Did very little MM to boot. Records like this are only interesting for the potential. Once I get an idea of how to do it, I lose interest. I'd rather be in a multiplayer game.

Quote:

EDIT: Hrm, yeah. Maybe CA really is better than IS for this setup. 44438 @ 2450, just hit F9 for the last 10 turns. Bad race too, nowhere near enough factories to build the mines (mine settings 10/3/10 to build 25 factories... lol ) - didn't even finish the HW, hahaha.

I thought so...

Quote:

14 greens popped up in the last 10 years, . Finished TT25 and TT30 in that no-micro burst. You wouldn't have time to really make much use of anything that needed TT25 or more to make green though. There's certainly time to build facs on TT20 worlds though.

Well, I was thinking that you could calculate all the worlds that would pop green, and have pop on them already, maxing the factories. I just didn't want to take the time to figure it all out. I also mined way to much metal for a res only shot. Then, didn't shuffle it. I was too lazy.

I played a 19% race, and could have easily had enough pop banked for quick growth. In fact, 20% is really cheap on a 1 in171, I just forgot, and went with 19%. I would probably make the fact cost 6, and lose mining potential. I had way to much metal.

Quote:

60k looks to be a accessible target.

Yep, probably, but I won't be the one doing the MM mad test. Good luck!

-Matt

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mlaub wrote on Sun, 23 August 2009 00:32

Yep, probably, but I won't be the one doing the MM mad test. Good luck!

Hehe, I don't think I will be either. I think the score on this is quite dependent on the hab draw, and with no prescan I don't feel like 'wasting' time on bad universes And if there was prescan, then it's not much of a testbed - more about genning universes then, than actually playing.

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smartaleq wrote on Sat, 22 August 2009 15:20

If the gen is entirely devoid of greens except the homeworld, then theoretically you could still get very close to 65+k Res. <snip> Thoughts?

Well, theoretically, you could have all the worlds green from the start. It won't happen, but still... I am with Dogthinkers on this, it just depends on the draw, so it is more about the universe selected than a valid test.

Besides, you could be killing others in a multiplayer game, rather than working out theories.

-Matt

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smartaleq wrote on Sat, 22 August 2009 18:34

In my post though, the theoretically was referring to a worst case scenario, not a best. I believe a race/play design could achieve 65k in ANY gen with a central-ish home planet.

OK. I guess that never occurred to me. Your pop numbers are what is confusing me. Now it makes sense.

-Matt

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smartaleq wrote on Sun, 23 August 2009 09:34

In my post though, the theoretically was referring to a worst case scenario, not a best. I believe a race/play design could achieve 65k in ANY gen with a central-ish home planet.

It's not as easy as that though, because with IS you get an additional constraint - you've got to build all those freighters, AND produce and distribute all the minerals to be able to snap-build the factories. I think quite fantastic mine settings will be needed, since the HW will have to do pretty much all the work if you're trying to maximise pop growth without relying on finding greens.

I wonder if you could get away with all tech expensive, if you're dropping the effort of finding greens/yellows. Con normal or cheap will be usefull, but if you're not bothering to expand then maybe you can get away without it, ramp up time not really mattering so long as you manage to keep the HW at 25%.

By the way, I think max pop at 2444 for IS, using only the HW, is actually about 28.26 million. (Utilising the 'grow your pop twice' trick to have pop in freighters overflow to become the (at first 25%, then up to 33.4% as the orgy becomes able to supply the entire HW ground pop) hold at the HW.

It's an interesting logistics puzzle

I think sourcing the germ for the factories will be pretty much impossible from HW alone, with this strat

EDIT:
I just tried with 17/3/25 mines, and it was looking like there was no hope of providing enough minerals filling even 200 reds with factories off the back of those mines.

I don't think it's possible get enough pop to cover the universe red colonies AND have enough minerals to fill them with factories. Holding the HW at 25% until the overflow starts to fill it (2421), then letting it fill to 100% (2434) purely by the popdrop gets you enough pop by 2444 to fill the universe with 110,000 pop colonies, but not even close to enough minerals. You could spread out earlier, with a target of 55,000 pop landing at every world in 2437, but I think minerals would be very tight, there'd be a TON of micro... For all that you'd get 68k resources.

I think you've got to settle earlier, for minerals... Which means relying on finding greens, so you can still manage to pull enough pop growth.

Which brings us back to the 'it's all about the hab draw'

[Updated on: Sun, 23 August 2009 03:33]

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smartaleq wrote on Sun, 23 August 2009 19:51

I don't think i'm familiar with what you're referring to with "growing your pop twice"

Pop grows in freighters (and overflows to the surface) *before* the growth on the planet is calculated. What this means, is that some of your pop gets to grow *twice* - once in the freighter, then again on the ground. It also means you need to plan your population so the amount on the surface *after* overflow is the amount you wanted the HW to grow at that year.

Quote:

A question. Shouldn't the HW hold be at 33%? up to 25% pop you have 20% growth rate. Although your growth rate for the next 8% of people is lower than 20%, its still higher than 10%, yes? OR only through.... 29%? Does IS have a different ideal pop growth point?

For IS, you get optimal growth with the HW held at 25%, until you get to the point where overflow exceeds that amount (i.e. you leave 100 pop on the surface... overflow brings it to 275000 pop for a OBRM IS), at which point you just keep the maximum amount overflowing down until the overflow brings the HW back to 33.43% every year. Then you need to limit the overflow if you want to optimise growth (to keep the HW at 33.43% after overflow).

A little bit of explanation for the above... The growth you get of pop after the first 275000 is very small. The next 10,000 or so you add only grow at about a third of your normal rate - less than that in freighters. So the only reason to let the HW grow at over 25% is if you can do it using overflow pop (assuming you're only trying to optimise pop growth.)

In a real game, of course, population growth isn't everything, so you might keep more pop on the surface for extra resources in the short term. The game is in deciding how much to emphasise population growth, and when to emphasise short term resources (both of which buy you more resources in the future.)


My last attempt for this testbed was:
IS
CE, OBRM, NAS
1/171, 20%
1/1000
15/8/25/3g
17/3/25
All exp
11 points left over towards mines

See how extreme the mine settings are? This is *still* not enough minerals to supply the universe. And this is with the race hurt in other places to the point that LFs probably take too long to reach. Hence you need to colonise other worlds significantly sooner, which means you need to boost your growth, which means greens/yellows, which means non-blind play and some luck

You need 107196 germanium over the course of the game to build factories on all 239 reds and on the HW. The colonisers and freighters will of course cost you even more germ on top of this.

[Updated on: Sun, 23 August 2009 08:40]

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That explains why I had about 500k less pop than I calculated in year 30.


edit:
so i finished the game, and besides making two pretty awful mistakes got 31k. Not using pop growing twice cost me a significant share of people. Insufficient mines slowed the last resource push. Misplays cost me settling about 45 colonies (which I would have needed the pop for anyways)

image 1 shows i have no starting greens, and didn't improve my yellows. Think I had bio 10 at the end. Also shows my planet list. I sent G to the top 15ish worlds.
http://img44.imageshack.us/img44/2407/planetlist.png

image 2 shows the rings of uncolonized planets, and my resource graph with its curious shape. The variable early years were because i wasn't correctly holding the HW with overflow. The curve after the jump would be steeper with better G management
http://img4.imageshack.us/img4/1641/resourcesandcolonies.png

Edit2: I hit F9 a couple of times. The capacity is there, just have to capture it earlier...
http://img5.imageshack.us/img5/562/past2450.jpg

[Updated on: Sun, 23 August 2009 17:10]

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