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So true. I bet the Jeffs planned it like that. Flexibility (either by PRT, LRT or playstyle) matters too.

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m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 00:13

I'd be definitely interested if I hadn't already another Huge-vanilla game going on. If this game takes a while to get started I might be able to juggle the two. Guess what I'll be playing... Also, for those who hadn't noticed, I never said that JoaT was better than CA. What I'm defending is that JoaT is definitely among the contenders for the crown.

Hi!

I had noticed. And I agree. That's why I'm offering the game.

Regards,

AE

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iztok wrote on Wed, 11 February 2009 08:56

Hi! Alter Ego wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 21:06 Of course there is a distinct chance that they will gang up on every CA in sight. That's about the only chance for other races to survive. They'd have a chance before CA hits the TT-25. With TT-25 it "monsterizes" so badly (84% planets livable, 56% of them breeders) it would be bloody hard to stop it. IMO such a test in huge normal uni is not a real proof, because it would become a game of all others vs. CA(s). If there would not be enough CAs (like 5) to "spread" other races more proportionally, it would be pointless to play. The "all-enemy" setting also negates the big diplo advantage CAs have: Orbital Adjusters. In normal games the player that meets his CA neighbour always has the big dilemma: if he fights it, it stalls his development, easily missing opportunity to win. But if he allies with CA, both can grow BIIIG, easily winning the game. If one'd rally want to test CA capability, he should've put it in a small normal uni with one other race as opposition. Both races should also be played by the players of about the same level. And OFC repeat the test 10 times, to minimize impact of the starting conditions. Then he'd see the CA would win most of the time vs. any race but the ccmaster's duel -f HE . BR, Iztok

Hi Iztok!

As I just said, the aim this game would not be to test the abilities of the PRT CA, but rather to show that JoaT should not be disregarded when talking about PRTs which are well suited to a large or huge universe.

As a matter of fact, I would not regard such a game as a test of any kind. You are right of course: To test any of the PRTs would need a setup such as you suggested. And most other PRTs would have a problem against a CA in such a setting. Which would still be inconclusive...

Btw: I have beaten ccmaster in a duel, and he was playing his -f HE. He says his planet draw was unfavourable.


Anyway: The game I suggested was mainly intended as a chance for magicmushroom to show that JoaT is so much worse than CA that it doesn't stand a chance.

I'd be willing to go along with the players if they want to have different rules for the diplomatics. This would give the CAs a chance to make friends and would help other races with nice toys. It would be a disadvantage for JoaTs because they haven't got much to offer except their brute strength.


If magicmushroom is interested in the game, I'll set up an announcement in a separate thread.

Regards,

AE

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Besides, it would be huge fun!

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Hi!

[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 01:43]Besides, it would be huge fun!

Huge normal has 800 planets. Late game empires will meet all kinds of Stars!'s limitations. The game for them will be a huge MM nightmare most players will not stand. The game will be won by a person who can do the most MM grind, not the best player.

My suggestion: don't even try it, if you're not ready for 4-hours turns.

BR, Iztok

[Updated on: Thu, 12 February 2009 03:18]

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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 09:12

The game for them will be a huge MM nightmare most players will not stand. The game will be won by a person who can do the most MM grind, not the best player. My suggestion: don't even try it, if you're not ready for 4-hours turns.

Most players should learn to do their MM properly and more efficiently, then. I've managed 30% of a Huge universe with no more than 1 hour of MM per turn. In fact, the late game was not the most busy part.

Coordination with allies and Diplomacy took far more than that, though.

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Hi!

m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05

In fact, the late game was not the most busy part.

That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face:
- constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper,
- constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them,
- opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships,
- your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM,
- your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM,
- constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there,
- painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM,
- enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM,
- your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders,
- your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets,
- you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom,
- you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately
- after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that.

BR, Iztok

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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:29

Hi! m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05 In fact, the late game was not the most busy part. That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face: - constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper, - constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them, - opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships, - your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM, - your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM, - constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there, - painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM, - enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM, - your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders, - your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets, - you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom, - you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately - after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that. BR, Iztok

AMEN!


mch

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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 11:29

That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face: < snip not-for-the-faint-of-heart fun >

You make it look as if most players should stick to playing checkers and not Stars!

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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 09:12

Hi! The game will be won by a person who can do the most MM grind, not the best player. BR, Iztok

Hi!

A player who is not willing to devote himself to MM can never be a really good Stars-player. That holds true regardless of the size of the universe.

Of course different settings entail differing amounts of MM. But the same holds for different PRTs and for certain SRTs.

SD is a good example. If you want to succeed with that PRT, you have to be willing to do more MM than most other races.

A race with NAS that does not have the ability to pen-scan by other means (JoaT, PP, SS for example) will have to make up for that lack by an increase in MM. He will have to make sure that he is not attacked by planet hopping fleets, and he will have to ping planets to see enemy fleets.

But of course you are right with the general thrust of your post: players who are not willing or able to devote themselves to the MM neccessary should not join a game such as this, otherwise they will end up as cannonfodder.

Regards,

AE

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[email

m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:05] SNIP Coordination with allies and Diplomacy took far more than that, though.

Hi!

This was the main reason why I suggested a game with all other players set to enemy and without communication.

But we are drifting away from the subject of this thread again. Maybe Micha wants to split this off and move it to a separate thread?

Regards,

AE

[Updated on: Sat, 14 February 2009 13:36]

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[Updated on: Mon, 30 March 2009 12:19]

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magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 27 March 2009 16:42

The problem with all that is that you doing those things will cut into your economy, whereas the -f has no economic spending and can hence counter you with ease.

Given the alternative is becoming their victim, I'd think of that as an economic investment.

Plus, a real economy can recover from that kind of effort.

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No, a real tactican can recover.

A hp econ stalled would die if played worng.

Any survival investment is worthy

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m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 28 March 2009 21:30

magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 27 March 2009 16:42 The problem with all that is that you doing those things will cut into your economy, whereas the -f has no economic spending and can hence counter you with ease. Given the alternative is becoming their victim, I'd think of that as an economic investment. Plus, a real economy can recover from that kind of effort.

Oh, sure.

My point is that stalling a -f's expansion stalls both your own expansion and your econ. Which means that you're both dead.

Multi-party PD for the epic lose.

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iztok wrote on Thu, 12 February 2009 10:29

Hi! That's what I'm trying to tell: most players don't do heavy MM. If there would be one in your game, you'd face: - constant sweeping of your minefields all along the border and deeper, - constant losing of your minelayers and sweepers close to the border, because you don't do enough MM to check if you need to move them to safety or reinforce them, - opponent's minefields poping up just about everywhere on and behind frontline, because you dont patrol your space to check for heavy cloaked ships, - your internal trafic being harrased by heavy cloaked ships, that retreat thereafter behind those minefields you have problems to sweep because you don't do enough MM, - your interceptors you sent after those ships being intercepted by bigger ships you didn't spot, because you don't do enough MM, - constant attacks on your border planets and fleets outside the reach of your main fleet(s), that you can't prevent, because you don't do enough MM to check what your opponent really has there, - painfull (suicidal) thrusts deeper in your teritory where you've lost defenders and didn't replace them quickly because you don't do enough MM, - enemy fleets appearing unchallenged through the WH in your rear area you don't protect because you don't do enough MM, - your attacks going slowly, because you didn't sent ships ahead of them to clear minefields and check for defenders, - your attacks being predictable, because you're doing MM only for your main fleet, and it has only a limited number of targets, - you being often counter-designed, because your opponent checks every design of yours, but you do that only seldom, - you missing the turn(s), because you don't care enough, or the game got sooooo MM heavy you need a break, and ultimately - after being hit hard, because you missed too many of the above points, you drop off the game, because it would take too much of MM to recover, and you just don't do that. BR, Iztok

I have not read a thread in which this post would be off topic.
Kudos

[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 08:42]

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[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 05:05]

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[Updated on: Thu, 02 April 2009 13:04]

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