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Late game minesweeper |
Sun, 01 March 2009 16:44 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
In many early games I've played I've used the "dirt-cheap" sweeper: DD hull, LH-6 engine, one gattling gun or two bazookas, wolverine or crobby shield, fuel tank, nothing more.
Then I realized that this design is too slow to be used as an early interceptor for colonizers, PVTs, scouts and shielded minelayers, so I started using DLL-7 engine instead of LH-6, and this became my "standard" sweeper, used throughout the whole game.
But in my last game I'm really pressed for free design slots, so I don't have a dedicated interceptor/skirmisher design. For some mid-game period that was the job for remaining outdated "mainline" colloidal+sapper CCs, but when I scrapped them for better designs, I've been without a shirmisher thereafter. He closest replacement were my DD sweepers and a few colloidal BBs, but colloidal BBs I scrapped to get slot for nubian designs, and DD sweepers are too slow to catch almost anything on the battle board. What I'm now sending after those pesky scouts are heavy-blaster BBs, but they're still needed for more serious bussines, and they don't gate around very well.
I need a skirmisher, but I don't have free slot for it. However there could be a solution: if my sweepers would have range 3 weapon, and'd move with battle speed 1.5, they could at least once fire at anything that doesn't have combat speed 2.5 and dissengage orders. Currently that includes virtually everything I see in our nubian-period game, so they could be used as weak skirmishers as well.
Se when my next game shows a potential to last to nubians, I'll seriously consider scrapping my "dirt-cheap" design, and creating more usefull one, like DD, single heavy Blaster, strong shield (likely gorilla), AD-8 engine, and a fuel tank. It can sweep, catch even IS-10 driven scouts, has enough firepower to fight CC skirmishers, but is still cheap enough to be considered as a "throw-away" ship, used for suicidal missions.
What are your thoughts?
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Sun, 01 March 2009 16:48] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Sun, 01 March 2009 18:34 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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iztok wrote on Sun, 01 March 2009 22:44 | Se when my next game shows a potential to last to nubians, I'll seriously consider scrapping my "dirt-cheap" design, and creating more usefull one, like DD, single heavy Blaster, strong shield (likely gorilla), AD-8 engine, and a fuel tank. It can sweep, catch even IS-10 driven scouts, has enough firepower to fight CC skirmishers, but is still cheap enough to be considered as a "throw-away" ship, used for suicidal missions.
What are your thoughts?
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I'm using almost exactly the same design in a game that reached the nub era: DD with AD8, 1 heavy blaster, 1 pulsed sapper and a bear shield. So far haven't regretted it, but my enemies haven't tried to counter it yet with CCs or better ... Costs +/-50 resources, not dirt cheap but close enough, I've build 350 of them (started in 2465) and lost about 100 (2495), I don't even miss them ...
Reason is same as you: design slots.
mch
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Mon, 02 March 2009 15:16 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Micha wrote on Mon, 02 March 2009 13:55 | You won't be doing that when your enemy sends in 100 dirt cheap ships himselfs and strips all your minefields.
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Perhaps not. I'd likely be busy destroying his main fleet(s).
But, seriously, I fail to see what's so good about a sweeper that cannot stand a minehit. When I see the hordes of cheap sweepers rushing at me at Warp4, begging to be reaped one after the other by superior ships, I cannot help but wonder.
Quote: | I think Iztok is right when he said it looks like you haven't been challenged by a MM freak before.
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Ah, but I have. Once I was beaten as a late-game replacement player. #1 had overwhelming advantage, so I'm not sure MM had a significant role.
The other time it turned out I was the better MMer. Plus, it was fun watching him try to kill one of my sweeper nubs with half a dozen of his CCs and failing.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Thu, 05 March 2009 13:20 |
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Sully | | Crewman 1st Class | Messages: 39
Registered: January 2004 | |
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100 dirty cheap sweepers?
At any point in the game (and this hurts must in the end) is that you only have 512 fleets.
I've never seen more then a dozen of so sweepers in any One field.
I'm with the Lietenant, I'd be looking at the Main fleet.
[Updated on: Thu, 05 March 2009 13:28] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Thu, 05 March 2009 17:44 |
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iztok | | Commander | Messages: 1207
Registered: April 2003 Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
[email | m.a@stars[/email] wrote on Thu, 05 March 2009 20:46]Do I take it that your sweepers can survive a minehit?
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Not alone. For that must be two.
Quote: | Or is it just that your enemies are lazy enough not to pursue them while they crawl along at safe speeds??
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If I want a normal minefield gone, I calculate the probability to got to it's center and send enough fleets to have high chances of success. Usually 2 or 3 fleets are needed, but I've sent 6 if the need was great. If they don't get through, I usually split them into smaller fleets or even single ships and repeat the procedure. Since the MF is allready reduced, those smaller fleets usually sweep it completely, even if half of them are intercepted.
A nasty trick is to give sweepers disengage order and split usuall 5 sweepers in 4 fleets: 2 sweepers and 3*1 sweeper. Those last three move independently at low speed to 1 LY off the MF center, but the 2-sweepers fleet doesn't move and gets reinforced by a strong warship(s), or retreats, so interceptors hit my MF. OFC that can be countered, but only with lots of MM. Remember, I have ~65 sweeper fleets. At least a half of them are sweeping, from those at least a half can be manipulated that way. The bonus question is which ones will be these?
BR, Iztok
[Updated on: Thu, 05 March 2009 17:49] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Thu, 05 March 2009 23:11 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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iztok wrote on Thu, 05 March 2009 23:44 | Not alone. For that must be two.
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Not so cheap, then.
Quote: | If I want a normal minefield gone
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That's when your opponent should start looking for you main fleet, shouldn't he?
Quote: | the 2-sweepers fleet doesn't move and gets reinforced by a strong warship(s), or retreats, so interceptors hit my MF. OFC that can be countered, but only with lots of MM.
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Of course. Counter #1: forget the flimsy throwaways, target the strong ship, which is a better prize, particularly if you have several mainline nubs skirmishing nearby.
Counter #2: Pursue with mainline nubs that can survive a minehit, sweep the enemy MF, and even engage unwary defenders.
Looks like my flavor of sweeping is not that bad, after all.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: Late game minesweeper |
Sat, 02 May 2009 19:19 |
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LEit | | Lt. Commander | Messages: 879
Registered: April 2003 Location: CT | |
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I've used DDs for sweepers in late games several times and have always been impressed with them. They're cheap, fast, and have lots of options.
I normally put one good shield, some armor (mostly organic), 2 range 3 beams (but the idea of a sapper is a good one, I'll have to try that some time), a OT, and the elec slot is either empty or has a cloak. I know that one cloak is not worth much, but it does tend to make pen scanners miss them when they're in orbit.
I armored them when fighting an SD, so perhaps no armor makes more sense when just facing normal mine fields. Yes they often need 2 or more ships in their fleet to survive a mine hit, but if you want those extra ships could be chaff. And due to a bug, if you have two different ships in one fleet, the first one in your design pool will take 4/5 of the damage, and the second one will take 1/5, so if you make sure chaff is the first ship in your design pool, 1 chaff and 1 sweeper will take minimal damage to the sweeper.
That may be considered an exploit, but I don't know how to avoid it by accident, and if you have the sweeper above the chaff, it could burn your sweepers.
- LEitReport message to a moderator
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Topic split (Re: Late game minesweeper) |
Fri, 08 May 2009 11:12 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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LEit wrote on Sun, 03 May 2009 01:19 | if you have two different ships in one fleet, the first one in your design pool will take 4/5 of the damage, and the second one will take 1/5
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Comments to this have been split off to a new topic which you can find here: Mine Damage Dodge - bug or feature?.
mch,
modaw
[Updated on: Fri, 08 May 2009 11:12] Report message to a moderator
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