Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » The Academy » Defeating the factoryless race
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 06 February 2009 08:14   |
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 m.a@stars |
 | Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 13:48 |
Bullplop, in most universes.
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Care to put your race designs where your mouth is? 
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3i HE will be well ahead in tech and will also not be far behind in pop. Their res/col > that of an HP, and their hab is just the icing on the cake.
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My mistake, I actually meant HP/HG hybrids, as in my earlier posts. HE has no edge on those, race-wise, never. Full stop.
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AR might be killed early, but if it isn't it'll become close to unkillable late without shockingly superior force - which you can't have because he has minerals on you.
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Shockingly superior, that's what a good JoaT gets. And no amount of minerals will save the AR from "Kill Starbase" battleorders. "close to unkillable" indeed, is still "killable".
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IS overpop is better in a lot of cases than JoaT +20%. An IS -f can come close to equaling a JoaT +f in res/space. IS also get all their neat toys.
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Particularly their expensive-to-build weapons. "close" is no guarantee for the IS.
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IT are considered well OP in large/huge games because of their ubergates. With enough room to grow, an IT will take a lot more space than a JoaT because it can gate stuff out, solving the fuel problem. That'll make up for the JoaT's better planet size.
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With enough room to grow, the JoaT has no rival except the CA. Full stop.
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And that's without considering the impact of those gates on warfare.
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Ahh, yeah, the legendary IT gates. Neat, but not nearly as decisive as many people think.
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Most good races built on these principles wouldn't be able to take a TT CA one-on-one, but are in the same league, and are just plain different. JoaT is inferior to CA full stop.
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You lost me here. The JoaT *can* take on the TT-CA one-on-one. Why is it then excluded from the list? 
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 06 February 2009 09:10 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| m.a@stars wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 00:14 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 13:48 |
Bullplop, in most universes.
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Care to put your race designs where your mouth is?
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Hey, look, I know I suck, but that doesn't make the theory wrong. 
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3i HE will be well ahead in tech and will also not be far behind in pop. Their res/col > that of an HP, and their hab is just the icing on the cake.
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My mistake, I actually meant HP/HG hybrids, as in my earlier posts. HE has no edge on those, race-wise, never. Full stop.
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Are you quite sure of that?
Let's stick together some sort of 6% 3i HE. You'll be able to get 10+% achieved growth easily, that's in the ballpark of most HG JoaTs. And capacity should be better given the 100% hab with 100% value on all planets. So what matters is economy. I won't take NAS just to be nice.
HE
ISB, NRSE, OBRM, RS
3i 6%
1/1000 13/8/20/3g 11/3/20
Weap, con cheap
Full planet size is 1980, compared to the average HG JoaT's 3854, but tri-imm means that you've got twice as many planets, at least, with twice as good hab on average, to make it up twice over. And this isn't even mentioning the huge mineral stockpiles a race like this will build up.
Overall conclusion: slightly behind a HG JoaT in pop growth early, makes it up later in capacity.
I'm not entirely sure what sort of settings a hybrid takes, I don't really know how to build one. But I'll point out that a 5% HE gets better factories and hence capacity with around the same achieved pop growth.
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AR might be killed early, but if it isn't it'll become close to unkillable late without shockingly superior force - which you can't have because he has minerals on you.
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Shockingly superior, that's what a good JoaT gets. And no amount of minerals will save the AR from "Kill Starbase" battleorders. "close to unkillable" indeed, is still "killable".
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Problem with AR is that with their mineral fountain, and Death Stars growing pop, you really can't kill them permanently unless you can occupy almost all of their space simultaneously, because it takes an AR literally 3-4 years to rebuild a base from scratch, no more, as against the 9 for an HG JoaT with unlimited Germ (not likely) or the 14 for an HP JoaT with unlimited Germ (even less likely). Sure you can kill the bases, but you'll find that they pop back up rather fast.
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IS overpop is better in a lot of cases than JoaT +20%. An IS -f can come close to equaling a JoaT +f in res/space. IS also get all their neat toys.
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Particularly their expensive-to-build weapons. "close" is no guarantee for the IS.
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Agreed. I'm just thinking the orgy angle and possibly -f angle though. A JoaT can't really do that and make it work in a large/huge uni.
Also all the cute defensive bonuses don't hurt.
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IT are considered well OP in large/huge games because of their ubergates. With enough room to grow, an IT will take a lot more space than a JoaT because it can gate stuff out, solving the fuel problem. That'll make up for the JoaT's better planet size.
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With enough room to grow, the JoaT has no rival except the CA. Full stop.
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Not so sure about that, but you may be right. This is admittedly shaky ground since I don't play IT.
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And that's without considering the impact of those gates on warfare.
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Ahh, yeah, the legendary IT gates. Neat, but not nearly as decisive as many people think.
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Again, my lack of game experience means I can't really say anything on this one.
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Most good races built on these principles wouldn't be able to take a TT CA one-on-one, but are in the same league, and are just plain different. JoaT is inferior to CA full stop.
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You lost me here. The JoaT *can* take on the TT-CA one-on-one. Why is it then excluded from the list?
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Can it? I doubt it. The JoaT's main strength is econ growth and capacity using its +20% planet size. Growth wise CA > JoaT, no contest. To keep up with a CA in terms of capacity they have to do years of terraforming
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 06 February 2009 13:01 |
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| mlaub |
 | Lieutenant |
Messages: 744
Registered: November 2003
Location: MN, USA | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 08:10 |
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Most good races built on these principles wouldn't be able to take a TT CA one-on-one, but are in the same league, and are just plain different. JoaT is inferior to CA full stop.
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You lost me here. The JoaT *can* take on the TT-CA one-on-one. Why is it then excluded from the list?
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Can it? I doubt it. The JoaT's main strength is econ growth and capacity using its +20% planet size. Growth wise CA > JoaT, no contest. To keep up with a CA in terms of capacity they have to do years of terraforming, all of which of course goes out the window as soon as the OAs pop up, in fact the planet will probably be unusable for 30 years if the CA uses enough. So no.
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Mushroom, you really need to get out of the cave, and play a bit more. Econ theories do not account for everything in the game.
-Matt
Global Warming - A climatic change eagerly awaited by most Minnesotans.
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Fri, 06 February 2009 18:43 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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| mlaub wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 05:01 |
| magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 08:10 |
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Most good races built on these principles wouldn't be able to take a TT CA one-on-one, but are in the same league, and are just plain different. JoaT is inferior to CA full stop.
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You lost me here. The JoaT *can* take on the TT-CA one-on-one. Why is it then excluded from the list?
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Can it? I doubt it. The JoaT's main strength is econ growth and capacity using its +20% planet size. Growth wise CA > JoaT, no contest. To keep up with a CA in terms of capacity they have to do years of terraforming, all of which of course goes out the window as soon as the OAs pop up, in fact the planet will probably be unusable for 30 years if the CA uses enough. So no.
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Mushroom, you really need to get out of the cave, and play a bit more. Econ theories do not account for everything in the game.
-Matt
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I'm starting to do exactly that.
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 07 February 2009 05:49 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Fri, 06 February 2009 15:10 |
Hey, look, I know I suck, but that doesn't make the theory wrong.
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Wrong. You're going against both theory and practice. And now you're saying you have no actual proof. 
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Are you quite sure of that?
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In fact, I got some practice at it. 
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Let's stick together some sort of 6% 3i HE. You'll be able to get 10+% achieved growth easily, that's in the ballpark of most HG JoaTs. And capacity should be better given the 100% hab with 100% value on all planets. So what matters is economy. I won't take NAS just to be nice.
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Speed matters too. Average HG/HP hybrid starts with plenty of tech advantage, and is already beefing up at least one breeder while the HE is still waiting to have enough pop to move.
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Full planet size is 1980, compared to the average HG JoaT's 3854, but tri-imm means that you've got twice as many planets, at least, with twice as good hab on average, to make it up twice over. And this isn't even mentioning the huge mineral stockpiles a race like this will build up.
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Again, that would be more a long term situation. Before that, JoaT planets reached 80% pop a lot faster than the HE (remember, 240% bigger planets mean crowding starts *much* later) and with gates everywhere mobility is way greater than the HE's.
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Overall conclusion: slightly behind a HG JoaT in pop growth early, makes it up later in capacity.
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While the JoaT (and everybody else) sleeps? 
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I'm not entirely sure what sort of settings a hybrid takes, I don't really know how to build one. But I'll point out that a 5% HE gets better factories and hence capacity with around the same achieved pop growth.
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Just a quick design: 1 in 5 or 1 in 6 planets, 17 or 18% PGR, slightly worse factories and mines than your HE, more expensive techs. Takes more MM to run, but grows faster than any HE.
Here you can read some old thread about the same issues.
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Problem with AR is that with their mineral fountain, and Death Stars growing pop, you really can't kill them permanently unless you can occupy almost all of their space simultaneously,
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That's what "conquest" generally means. 
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because it takes an AR literally 3-4 years to rebuild a base from scratch, no more,
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If "from scratch" means after evacuating all pop and minerals, then it's not "from scratch". And other races can evacuate their planets, too. 
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A JoaT can't really do that and make it work in a large/huge uni.
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Nor has the need. And, unlike IS overpop, JoaT pop runs mines and factories.
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Not so sure about that, but you may be right. This is admittedly shaky ground since I don't play IT.
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We aren't analyzing IT here. Play JoaT. Nothing has bigger planets. What other races do is try to compensate their smaller planets with better speed, tech or toys.
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Again, my lack of game experience means I can't really say anything on this one.
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The AIs don't use gates. You need to play people to learn all the nuances.
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Can it? I doubt it. The JoaT's main strength is econ growth and capacity using its +20% planet size.
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Which makes the JoaT the prime candidate to face a strong CA econ. 
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Growth wise CA > JoaT, no contest. To keep up with a CA in terms of capacity they have to do years of terraforming,
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Actually, JoaT starts to ramp-up earlier than CA. It's CA who has to catch-up thanks to their insta-forming.
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all of which of course goes out the window as soon as the OAs pop up, in fact the planet will probably be unusable for 30 years if the CA uses enough. So no.
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And, what makes you think these OAs will reach orbit without a fight?
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 07 February 2009 10:53 |
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| magic9mushroom |
| Commander |
Messages: 1361
Registered: May 2008 | |
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Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I'm getting rather sick of the oppressive atmosphere developing in this thread.
Now, on to your points.
"JoaT hybrid will be building up breeders while HE is still waiting to move"
- Categorically false. A 6% HE leaves homeworld at turn 5, a 19-20% JoaT at turn 6, and a 5% HE or 17-18% JoaT at turn 7. The JoaT will not be ahead in getting a second planet.
"JoaT planets will reach 80% much faster than HE"
- Um, how? On a planet with less than 66% hab, they won't, because their pop grows slower. Even on a planet with higher hab, the HE has much less pop to grow to get there. I must confess that I'm not really sure what your point is here, though.
"While the JoaT sleeps?"
- Sarcasm and strawmanning not appreciated. Remember that you're talking about Hybrid JoaTs and I said "slightly slower than **HG** JoaTs". Besides which, we're talking about a long game anyway.
"[snip Hybrid description and claim that they'll outgrow any HE]"
- Um, no? 12% growth tri-immune > 17% non-immune.
"Other races than AR can evacuate their planets too"
- Um, did you read what I posted? It takes an AR 3 years to rebuild a Death Star and hence full capabilities given pop and 400 kT of every mineral. It takes a HG JoaT 10 years to rebuild a planet given pop and 6500 kT of Germ. An HP JoaT takes 15 years to rebuild a planet given pop and 10000 kT of Germ.
- The AR will have all of what I listed, while the JoaTs may not. Regardless of that, it still means that the AR's bombing does much more damage to the JoaT's econ than the other way around.
The rest of your post is either fine or a stupid dig at me, and neither need replying to.
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 07 February 2009 13:50 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 16:53 |
Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I'm getting rather sick of the oppressive atmosphere developing in this thread.
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Not my intention. I'm just trying to save you from some dangerous misconceptions and possibly even some defeats. 
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"JoaT hybrid will be building up breeders while HE is still waiting to move"
- Categorically false. A 6% HE leaves homeworld at turn 5, a 19-20% JoaT at turn 6, and a 5% HE or 17-18% JoaT at turn 7. The JoaT will not be ahead in getting a second planet.
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I didn't say a second planet. I said "breeder". Your magical HE might have 15 puny colonies with 3000 pop each before a decent JoaT starts cranking its 1st breeder, but since you seem to equate both situations I'll conclude you don't have a solid grasp of the basics of pop management and direct you to read the FAQs or any fine article by Jason Cawley before wasting more of my time.
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"JoaT planets will reach 80% much faster than HE"
- Um, how? On a planet with less than 66% hab, they won't, because their pop grows slower. Even on a planet with higher hab, the HE has much less pop to grow to get there. I must confess that I'm not really sure what your point is here, though.
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Usually by getting enough good greens (better than 50%) to easily outgrow your 6% HE. Which needs good scanning. Which JoaTs excel at.
Well, perhaps against a very unlucky hab draw they wouldn't, but that's what terraforming is for. For non-immune races hab actually increases with time.
Anyway, my point was that speed matters, too, and your HE won't be the 1st to reach its maturity and combat readiness, by a long shot.
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Remember that you're talking about Hybrid JoaTs and I said "slightly slower than **HG** JoaTs". Besides which, we're talking about a long game anyway.
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And the point I'm trying to get across is that an Hybrid gets almost as much speed as a pure HG, while sacrificing some endgame capacity which is almost always better than that of any HE anyway.
By the way, remember mentioning the huge mineral stockpiles an HE is likely to build up? Sorry, but with your mines they won't. At least not what I would call "huge"
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"[snip Hybrid description and claim that they'll outgrow any HE]"
- Um, no? 12% growth tri-immune > 17% non-immune.
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Perhaps in your testbeds. Certainly not in mine. 
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"Other races than AR can evacuate their planets too"
- Um, did you read what I posted? It takes an AR 3 years to rebuild a Death Star and hence full capabilities given pop and 400 kT of every mineral. It takes a HG JoaT 10 years to rebuild a planet given pop and 6500 kT of Germ. An HP JoaT takes 15 years to rebuild a planet given pop and 10000 kT of Germ.
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You said "from scratch". That's definitely not "from scratch". If you posit that an AR can evacuate all pop and minerals it may need for rebuilding, I'm free to posit that other races can evacuate all pop and minerals they need too.
Plus, you show again your weak grasp on the basics of war, so I'll again recommend you read the Strategy Guide or play more games before wasting any more of my time.
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The AR will have all of what I listed, while the JoaTs may not. Regardless of that, it still means that the AR's bombing does much more damage to the JoaT's econ than the other way around.
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In theory, yes. In practice, not so much. Unless the JoaT has no idea of how to avoid it. Which hasn't been the case in the games I've played.
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So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sat, 07 February 2009 14:22 |
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| m.a@stars |
| Commander |
Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 16:53 |
On a planet with less than 66% hab, they won't, because their pop grows slower.
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I hadn't properly analyzed that figure before. What makes you say that?
Assuming HE got OBRM -> max pop is 550k, crowding kicks in at 33% -> 183k.
OBRM JoaT at 66% Hab -> max pop is 880k, crowding kicks in at 293k 
So the JoaT would grow almost as fast as the HE before crowding, and significantly faster afterwards, while reaching the same pop at the same time, and about 33% more pop shortly thereafter. And then both will struggle but always the JoaT will have more pop and resources. And that's on a not very good planet, assuming no breeder surpluses to help. 
If everything was as easy as math, there would be no contest.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Sun, 08 February 2009 16:28 |
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| vonKreedon wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 20:11 |
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In theory, yes. In practice, not so much.
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Or to put it another way:
In theory there is no difference between theory and practice, but in practice there is.
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Glorious!
And since I have a guess why John is so interested how to beat -f, I am glad that the topic is shifting to this evil CAs.
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Tue, 10 February 2009 15:06 |
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| Alter Ego |
 | Officer Cadet 4th Year |
Messages: 283
Registered: November 2002
Location: Germany | |
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| magic9mushroom wrote on Sat, 07 February 2009 16:53 |
Firstly, I'd like to make it clear that I'm getting rather sick of the oppressive atmosphere developing in this thread.
SNIP
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Hi Magic!
I didn't actually feel the atmosphere to be oppressive. You took a very decisive stand on a certain issue - which is your inalienable right. But you do have to accept that other players might be of a different opinion - and say so.
Anyway, to come back to the comparison of theory and practice: The proof of the mushroom is in the eating.
You might have noticed that games in which CAs are not banned or severely handicapped have become rather rare on SAH. So it might be quite a while before you have the chance to prove that a CA will beat a JoaT in a large or huge universe.
Now, before you grow a long beard waiting, I'm willing to host such a game.
Very, very plain vanilla: Huge, normal, distant. AccBS. Maximum of 16 players. No restrictions applying to races.
But to reduce the effects of diplomacy: All other races set to enemy. Not communications between races at all. No alliances.
You're welcome to play a CA and see if you come out on top. I will try to see that there is at least one JoaT to go against you.
In addition, you may play under an alias so as to make sure that other players don't gang up on you right away.
Of course there is a distinct chance that they will gang up on every CA in sight.
Interested?
Anybody else interested?
Regards,
Alter Ego
War does not determine who is right. Just who is left.
Bertrand Russell
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Tue, 10 February 2009 18:45 |
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| neilhoward | 
| Commander |
Messages: 1112
Registered: April 2008
Location: SW3 & 10023 | |
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I am definitely interested in playing against a CA without the chains.
[Updated on: Tue, 10 February 2009 18:51] Report message to a moderator
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| Re: Defeating the factoryless race |
Wed, 11 February 2009 02:56 |
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| iztok |
| Commander |
Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe | |
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Hi!
| Alter Ego wrote on Tue, 10 February 2009 21:06 |
Of course there is a distinct chance that they will gang up on every CA in sight.
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That's about the only chance for other races to survive. They'd have a chance before CA hits the TT-25. With TT-25 it "monsterizes" so badly (84% planets livable, 56% of them breeders) it would be bloody hard to stop it.
IMO such a test in huge normal uni is not a real proof, because it would become a game of all others vs. CA(s). If there would not be enough CAs (like 5) to "spread" other races more proportionally, it would be pointless to play.
The "all-enemy" setting also negates the big diplo advantage CAs have: Orbital Adjusters. In normal games the player that meets his CA neighbour always has the big dilemma: if he fights it, it stalls his development, easily missing opportunity to win. But if he allies with CA, both can grow BIIIG, easily winning the game. 
If one'd rally want to test CA capability, he should've put it in a small normal uni with one other race as opposition. Both races should also be played by the players of about the same level. And OFC repeat the test 10 times, to minimize impact of the starting conditions. Then he'd see the CA would win most of the time vs. any race but the ccmaster's duel -f HE .
BR, Iztok
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