Home World Forum
Stars! AutoHost web forums

Jump to Stars! AutoHost


 
 
Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Line Of Supply / Fog of War
Line Of Supply / Fog of War Tue, 06 May 2008 13:58 Go to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
FINAL UPDATE: FINAL RULES FOR THE GAME (the original suggestion you can see below):

The intention is to create a game that gives the commander the same problems as that of the Pacific or North Africa theatre in WW2 where the line of supply is long and supply points (bases) are few, i.e. you have to scout and 'read' the map well and to be a good tactictian several turns in advance of battle in order to do well.

* PRT banned: JoaT, PP, IT
* LRT forbidden: IFE, ISB, NAS (exception: AR races may take ISB but they still may not build Docks)
* LRT mandatory: NRSE
* CA must leave 70 race points AND take either Ultimate recycling or Mineral Alchemy
* HAB: two bands must be exactly centered (or immune), the third must include the center value (or immune)
* for races with immunities, their HW's hab setting will be made centered
* forbidden during the game: gates, fuel pods, fuel ships, settler's delight engine, penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
* any ship you start the game with that are not allowed by these rules must scrapped immediately
* capital missiles are allowed
* no restrictions on tech (take as many cheap as you like)
* Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins, intelligence etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy. Otherwise talk all you want.
* Victory: last team/player standing or consensus

Game setup:
8 players: medium (NOT stretched), distant, sparse (27 planets/player, 81^2 ly/planet, about 480 ly between HWs)
Parameters: checked: Acc. BBS, no random events (i.e. no wormholes, no MT). The rest is not checked.
Cheats: split fleet and chaff allowed.

Other:
* players considered very experienced/skilled must leave 70 race point set to whatever they like (in addition to CA penalty)
* if a player misses two unexplained turns and is still out of contact, I will pause the game for a turn or so to look for a replacement. I have seen how fast the fun and thrill is sucked out of a game when a major player goes AWOL.
*Gen schedule: Sunday to Friday fixed at 5 a.m. GMT, (i.e. Friday and Saturday evenings are free). Later on (around 2435) we go to 3 turns/week

No longer relevant rules:
Size: 6 players: small stretched to 1000x1000, distant, dense (26 planets/player, 79^2 ly/planet, about 450 ly between HWs)



ORIGNAL POST:

The intention is to create a game that gives the commander the same problems as that of the Pacific or North Africa theatre in WW2 where the line of supply is very long and supply points are few. Hopefully creating an environment where fuel and damage repair become more important for continued campaigning, and refuelling points (bases) are the means for controlling a wider area. Since reinforcements will be a long way away, little lost skirmishes on the frontier may become snowballs unravelling an entire front.

I would like to play this game myself (until someone convinces me it will be boring), so a neutral is needed to set up the game.

To screate the Line of Supply problem:
IFE: banned, NRSE: mandatory, HE cannot use Settlers' Delight (their starters must be used or scrapped by 2405)
Fuelships and fuel pods of any kind banned
Stargates banned, Spacedocks banned (but if you want ISB for lower cost and the Ultra, go ahead)
Weapons, propulsion, construction and electronics tech may not be cheap.
Capital missiles banned (it will be difficult to bring chaff over large distances). Alternative: Cap missiles cannot be aided by any battle computer.

To create the Fog of War problem:
Penetrating scanners of any kind as well as planetary scanners are banned. You may only have the one you start the game with on your HW and your secondary. Violaters will be quarantined from the planet for 10 years, or the nearest major green planet if the rule is abused and made on a red or very low value planet.
NAS banned
Joat banned
As mentioned above, Electronics tech may not be cheap
No ship may have more than one scanner on them
AR races and their built in scanners?: I say allow them, as their intrinsic planetary scanners are difficult to use for offensive operations, and since this is all about base control, they will likely have a hard time already.

To create the fight over the same vital supply points (bases):
All races must at random choose two hab ranges to be exactly centered (or immune), the third may be set as one chooses. Host should check that no two neighbours have a 100% overlap so they can't intersettle.

Diplomacy:
Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy. Ten years must pass before you can change your friend. If more than 8 players still active, a team may negotiate a NAP with one other player/team, and a player without a friend may do so with two other players/teams (only 1 NAP if 8 or less players still active). Talk all you want. Winning: last player/team standing or consensus.

Game setup:
Size: small, farther, packed (if less than 8 players then dense)
Parameters: checked: Acc. BBS, no random events. The rest is not checked.
Number of players: 8 is preferred, 10 max, if 9-10 join, all must choose either UR or MA as a lesser trait. If enough interest I will setup a second game, but without gates I think we should stick to a small universe.
Skill level: intermediate and above (but lets see who shows interest)
Cheats: split fleet and chaff (but not useful) allowed.


{mod edit: "final update"}


[Updated on: Mon, 26 May 2008 16:03] by Moderator


Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Tue, 06 May 2008 18:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iztok is currently offline iztok

 
Commander

Messages: 1206
Registered: April 2003
Location: Slovenia, Europe
Hi!
Quote:

To create the Line of Supply problem:

IMO in a small universe this will not be a serious problem. Some additional cheap LFs and you're out of fuel problem for 2-3 w-9 moves. Maybe limiting the engines to only QJ-5 would create the real problem?

Quote:

Joat banned

You may consider banning the SD and PP. SD's minefields have scannig ability, and PP's packets also do scan.

BR, Iztok



Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Wed, 07 May 2008 05:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06

Hi!
Quote:

To create the Line of Supply problem:

IMO in a small universe this will not be a serious problem.

Indeed. Why go to all that trouble just to conquer an universe where the front line is likely to be no more than ten hops away from your HW? Razz

Lines of supply are already a problem in Huge universes, at least for races w/out Gates. If you want supply to be the key to the game, you should play at least a Large, sparse, and if possible stretched out universe. Rolling Eyes

But if you really want to combine the supply and the fog-of-war problems, why not just force every ship to planet hop, with only short stays (1 hop or 2) allowed out of orbit? Most "straight" paths become unusable and routes become all windy and full of choke-points, particularly with Clumping. Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Wed, 07 May 2008 09:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
m.a@stars is currently offline m.a@stars

 
Commander

Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004
Location: Third star to the left
If you go for the modest-sized playground, you can call the game "A Short Trip to Hell" Deal

If you go for the larger version, you could call it "A Long Way From Home" Twisted Evil



So many Stars, so few Missiles!

In space no one can hear you scheme! Deal

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Wed, 07 May 2008 14:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06


IMO in a small universe this will not be a serious problem. Some additional cheap LFs and you're out of fuel problem for 2-3 w-9 moves. Maybe limiting the engines to only QJ-5 would create the real problem?



Haven't thought of "QJ5 only", but that have some adverse effect on battles.

iztok wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 00:06


You may consider banning the SD and PP. SD's minefields have scannig ability, and PP's packets also do scan.


Forgot about PP packets, thanks. PP is also banned.


m.a@stars wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 11:13


Lines of supply are already a problem in Huge universes, at least for races w/out Gates. If you want supply to be the key to the game, you should play at least a Large, sparse, and if possible stretched out universe.

But if you really want to combine the supply and the fog-of-war problems, why not just force every ship to planet hop, with only short stays (1 hop or 2) allowed out of orbit? Most "straight" paths become unusable and routes become all windy and full of choke-points, particularly with Clumping.



Thanks for the comments.
I try to put up some settings that will make it a challenge to sustain offensive campaigns for the attacker because he/she has the longest line of supply. It does not matter if this is 3 to 1 years or 10 to 7 in the defender's advantage. I hope to keep the game short and intense.

I do not want to enforce planet hopping, because even with a Elec14 Eagle Eye 335 ly scanner, 3 super stealth cloaks to a distance of 67 ly. Moving cloaked ships so close to enemy bases before being sighted he cannot prepare defences should be an interesting tactival aspect.

I haven't played a game with such micro-man comprehensive rule as "max 1-2 years in open space". I would hate to always keep that in mind. Let's KISS, so those of you that play in more than one game don't make a fool of yourself by mixing the rules for each game Smile

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Wed, 07 May 2008 23:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shadow Whist is currently offline Shadow Whist

 
Chief Warrant Officer 2

Messages: 167
Registered: August 2003
Location: Vancouver, WA
I think m.a@stars is right on with the large sized stretched out universe.
My feeling is that you could play a normal game with all the normal settings one would usually find in a small sized game, but stretch that universe out to a large size. Donjon recently discussed SuperSizing your Stars! Universe. Don't know if you will need to go to the extreme level. Such an option will definitely create your line of supply problem. As for the fog of war, your planet based scanners would still only reach to a few worlds.

Stretching meets your objectives of LOS/FOW without adding any complicated rules or restrictions. The races would strive to overcome their disabilities through research and doing such would impact one's economy.

Also, if you wanted to play a shorter game you could generate multiple turns at a time.




Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sun, 11 May 2008 12:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
A very interesting concept.
Too many rules, though. And either the number of players must be drastically cut down or the size of the universe enlarged, otherwise it's too crowded and that runs contrary to fog of war, logistic and fuel problems which need a certain distance and size or "emptiness".

To cut down on the rules I suggest the following:
* PRT banned: JoaTs, PP
* LRT forbidden: IFE, NAS
* LRT mandatory: NRSE
* HAB: grav, temp, rad must be centered
* forbidden during the game: gates, docks, fuel pods, fuel ships, settler's delight engine, penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
* Only one other player may be set to friend, and/or traded (tech, ships, mins etc) with at any one time, all others must be set to enemy.
* Victory: last team/player standing or consensus

Here 2 suggestions for the universe setup:
1) small, sparse, 6 players, acc bcc, no random events
This results in a universe of 800x800 ly with 96 planets. Per player around 16 planets and 326 square-ly. IMHO the universe is a bit too small, the number of planets as low as making 1WW interesting but it will be a short and intense game for sure.

2) medium, sparse, 8 players, acc bcc, no random events
This results in a universe of 1200x1200 ly with 216 planets. Per player around 27 planets and 424 square-ly. This should be the best compromise between short/intense game but nevertheless creating fog of war and logistic problems.

As you can see I have dropped all restrictions on research and weaponry. Planetary pen-scanners coming with tech-10 are ok as is the IS-10. I'd call researching those a vaild strat at the price of researching con and weap.


[Updated on: Sun, 11 May 2008 13:01]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Wed, 14 May 2008 15:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Re Shadow
As for stretching and generating multiple turns: I have never tried such a game, but does streching add anything except it takes a lot longer to move your fleets around? and makes penetrating planetary scanners and drivers less useful.

Multiple turns to overcome that: how well does this work in practice, can AH do it?

I wasn't really intending to rebuild the Pacific Ocean where you can steam for 7 days/turns and still haven't seen any action. Nor did I intend to make it extremely difficult fuelwise to move over long distances. I was rather aiming at creating a tactical game where 'reading the map' is much more crucial than normal because reinforcments will be farther away, even in a small universe, and on the other hand making it more difficult than normal to sustain the advance in a campaign (fuel/gating in chaff etc.). I don't think it takes more turns head start at a flank than can be achieved in a small universe.


and Altruist (still alive - great!)
I agree 8 players in a small uni will be crowded for these game settings. I imagine a uni with about 500 ly between HWs will give both some distance and a fairly fast paced game? streching a small uni to 1000 by 1000 with 6 players in it? or medium with 8 (as you suggest)?

I would also ban ISB. There should be some difficulty establishing a fuel supply base at the frontier or inside newly conquered enemy territory!

I buy your argument of not restricting tech costs.

Hab settings: I think all 3 centered is perhaps too much as it really don't give you much to work with in race design, not giving much diversity. Perhaps saying that two must be centered and the third band just have to include the center value?

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Thu, 15 May 2008 08:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
perrindom wrote on Wed, 14 May 2008 21:13

Hab settings: I think all 3 centered is perhaps too much as it really don't give you much to work with in race design, not giving much diversity. Perhaps saying that two must be centered and the third band just have to include the center value?


Excellent idea.

If you have everything thoughs out and decided, perhaps it might be a good idea to cut down on confusion by restarting the announcement process?

Although I hate it not to play with gates and docks, I think, I'll join the game. Looks like an exciting tactical challenge.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Thu, 15 May 2008 15:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Altruist wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 14:57

If you have everything thoughs out and decided, perhaps it might be a good idea to cut down on confusion by restarting the announcement process?

Done so.

Should cap missiles be banned? it will be harder than usual to bring chaff, and even harder to bring replacement chaff to fend off the defender's reinforcements

Altruist wrote on Thu, 15 May 2008 14:57


Although I hate it not to play with gates and docks, I think, I'll join the game. Looks like an exciting tactical challenge.

Wellcome, I will look forward to that very much

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Thu, 15 May 2008 23:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
oldmetalhead is currently offline oldmetalhead

 
Petty Officer 3rd Class

Messages: 49
Registered: May 2007
Location: Troy, Ohio
What skill levels are you looking for here?

I consider myself to be an intermediate beginner Very Happy

If that will do, count me in.

oldmetalhead



oldmetalhead

Old metalheads don't die, they just Sail Away.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Fri, 16 May 2008 03:28 Go to previous messageGo to next message
iojho is currently offline iojho

 
Officer Cadet 4th Year

Messages: 280
Registered: October 2006
Location: EPBA
Count me in, thx.


"Every person speculates on creating a new need in another, so as to drive him to fresh sacrifice, to place him in a new dependence and to seduce him into a new mode of enjoyment and therefore economic ruin."


Karl Marx,1844

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Fri, 16 May 2008 06:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sulpholobus is currently offline Sulpholobus

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: December 2004
Location: Hotwater

perrindom wrote on Wed, 07 May 2008 03:58

UPDATE:
* HAB: two bands must be exactly centered, the third must include the center value


So a race can only have 1 immunity.

Sulpholobus.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Fri, 16 May 2008 07:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
I am in.

Cap miss: yes. I'd even say: of course. One of the aspects of the game is to cope with fuel shortage.

Quote:

* forbidden during the game: ... penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
I'd suggest an exception for the robber baron scanner. Comes quite late in the game but there's no joy playing the stealthy ones without their robber scanner.


[Updated on: Fri, 16 May 2008 09:10]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Fri, 16 May 2008 10:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin

Whow, no fuel pods, fuel ships, no IFE but NRSE... in a first test completly gone wrong I've just realized how different this will be. It took me 8 turns until I realized that all my scouts were breaking the rules: they were equipped with fuel pods, of course.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Fri, 16 May 2008 16:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sulpholobus is currently offline Sulpholobus

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: December 2004
Location: Hotwater

I'd like to join the action too.

Sulpholobus.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 02:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Dashiva is currently offline Dashiva

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 61
Registered: April 2007
Location: Russia, Europe

I want to play too.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 03:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Sulpholobus wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 12:45


[So a race can only have 1 immunity.

Sulpholobus.

My idea was to have us fight for almost the same planet, and I would imagine players would have 1 narrow, 1 wide and 1 shifted either left or right (but still including the center value). Up to 3 immunities would still fullfill the rules.

Altruist wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 13:57

Quote:

* forbidden during the game: ... penetrating scanners (except planetary ones)
I'd suggest an exception for the robber baron scanner. Comes quite late in the game but there's no joy playing the stealthy ones without their robber scanner.

How do you know that - I have never seen you play anything than IT Wink
I know first hand it is a great toy, but I will say it's scanning advantage it simply too great to allow it. With no reinforcements readily available, it can more than ever strike at will with no risk of being hunted down afterwards. I think it is trong enough as it is, and being probed gives the defender a little advance warning that will even things out a little.

So far Cap Mis are allowed.

Added this to the rules: any game-starting ship not allowed by the rules must be scrapped immediately.

Players so far:
Per
Altruist
Oldmetalhead
Iojho
Sulpholobus
Dashiva

Thanks for joining.

Since I intend to play this game myself, could anyone lend me hand my setting up the game when time comes?
/Per (email: perrindom _at_ comxnet.sapmkiler.dk (remove the sapmkiler) - but don't send me any race files!


[Updated on: Sat, 17 May 2008 03:51]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 04:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Gen Schedule:
I expect the game's initial phases to last longer than normal, so, I suggest:
year 0-30: 28 hours
year 31-45: 36 hrs
after that: 52 hrs (or fixed 3 days/week)

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 05:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
gible

 
Commander

Messages: 1343
Registered: November 2002
Location: Wellington, New Zealand

I can help set up if you want Smile

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 06:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sulpholobus is currently offline Sulpholobus

 
Petty Officer 1st Class

Messages: 62
Registered: December 2004
Location: Hotwater

perrindom wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 17:45

Sulpholobus wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 12:45


[So a race can only have 1 immunity.

Sulpholobus.

My idea was to have us fight for almost the same planet, and I would imagine players would have 1 narrow, 1 wide and 1 shifted either left or right (but still including the center value). Up to 3 immunities would still fullfill the rules.


Your rules state that 2 habs must be centered. An immunity for a hab does not require that hab to be centered. Hence, by taking more than one immunity, you will very probably have two habs that are not centered. Since the centered habs make everybody elses HW's desirable acquisitions, this is quite an important point. You would need to set such habs to the centre once the game was generated in order to meet your rules. This was done for the Reach for the Top game.

Sulpholobus.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sat, 17 May 2008 12:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Altruist is currently offline Altruist

 
Commander

Messages: 1068
Registered: August 2005
Location: Berlin
perrindom wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 10:14

Gen Schedule:
I expect the game's initial phases to last longer than normal, so, I suggest:
year 0-30: 28 hours
year 31-45: 36 hrs
after that: 52 hrs (or fixed 3 days/week)


O mercy, no irregular schedules like 28, 36 or 52h. That will drive us crazy. Keep it to plain old Earth day time, the one we originally all came from: 24h.

5 turns/week: until year 30
3 turns/week: afterwards as soon as requested

If somebody is gone for a week, orders can be taken over and submitted by the ally.

Quote:

I have never seen you play anything than IT


Ha! Selective memory. I've beaten you in a duel with a WM, you played the stealthy ones.


[Updated on: Sat, 17 May 2008 12:42]

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sun, 18 May 2008 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Sulpholobus wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 12:11

perrindom wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 17:45

Sulpholobus wrote on Fri, 16 May 2008 12:45


[So a race can only have 1 immunity.

Sulpholobus.

My idea was to have us fight for almost the same planet, and I would imagine players would have 1 narrow, 1 wide and 1 shifted either left or right (but still including the center value). Up to 3 immunities would still fullfill the rules.


Your rules state that 2 habs must be centered. An immunity for a hab does not require that hab to be centered. Hence, by taking more than one immunity, you will very probably have two habs that are not centered. Since the centered habs make everybody elses HW's desirable acquisitions, this is quite an important point. You would need to set such habs to the centre once the game was generated in order to meet your rules. This was done for the Reach for the Top game.

Sulpholobus.


I said the the "band" must be centered, but you do have a point here. Buying an immunity in this game gives you some advanteges: 1) better chance of finding good green planets in enemy territory that are not already occupied (or at least poorly defended), 2) your HW (and some other planets as well) will most likely be a less attractive prize for others to seize, 3) and as you say your enemies' HWs will be more attractive, but this is actually relatively less so than in a normal game, because all HWs are likely already green to you since all hab bands must include the center value

I think the effect is tolerable, but if Gible is willing to do the required work, let's make them centered.

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sun, 18 May 2008 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
gible wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 11:16

I can help set up if you want Smile


Thanks, Gible

/Per

Report message to a moderator

Re: Line Of Supply / Fog of War Sun, 18 May 2008 12:08 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
perrindom is currently offline perrindom

 

Messages: 129
Registered: August 2005
Location: Denmark
Altruist wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 18:39

O mercy, no irregular schedules like 28, 36 or 52h. That will drive us crazy. Keep it to plain old Earth day time, the one we originally all came from: 24h.

5 turns/week: until year 30
3 turns/week: afterwards as soon as requested


I didn't mean them to be fixed that way... but what do the rest of you say? Fixed or dynamic?

Altruist wrote on Sat, 17 May 2008 18:39


Ha! Selective memory. I've beaten you in a duel with a WM, you played the stealthy ones.

Oh yes, the -F I had the lunacy to play without ISB - forgive me, I totally supressed that memory, but I also recall that we gave each other 4 PRT choices, and IT was, deliberately, not among those I gave you. Take that for selective memory! Rolling Eyes


[Updated on: Sun, 18 May 2008 12:09]

Report message to a moderator

Previous Topic: mega newb
Next Topic: Hidden Friends ( Spz. Team Game )
Goto Forum:
  


Current Time: Fri May 03 15:05:24 EDT 2024