Home » Stars! 2.6/7 » New Game Announcements » Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted
Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Tue, 22 April 2008 16:27 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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jimroberts wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 21:54 | As for submitting the first turn, yes, we're waiting for Ron to give us a game page. Sorry if that wasn't clear. I could ask Micha to send me all the starting files and you to send me x files and I'll generate turns until Autohost is ready. But if we go that way, Micha almost need never have been involved: those who don't know me could suspect that I might take advantage of being the one with all the starting files - there are ways I could cheat.
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Once you generate a turn yourself you change the game and the files need to be resent to Ron, so the delay starts all over again. Starting off AH is not really an option.
mch
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Tue, 22 April 2008 17:43 |
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jimroberts | | Petty Officer 2nd Class | Messages: 52
Registered: March 2008 Location: Germany | |
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OK, we go with what we have: low minerals for everybody, though less bad for those who've spent points to protect against it, if any.
Just keep waiting for the game page to come up!
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Tue, 22 April 2008 18:38 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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jimroberts wrote on Tue, 22 April 2008 21:54 | Do you see why I didn't want an open discussion? Those with the robust view, that we take what we get, go public, those who feel more vulnerable keep quiet.
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Assuming noone was bluffing or on the contrary keeping his/her -f approach quiet.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Tue, 22 April 2008 22:39 |
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Hilton | | Crewman 1st Class | Messages: 28
Registered: February 2005 Location: Calgary, AB, Canada | |
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I'm not big on keeping my big mouth shut.
I'm just curious - is everybody's HW mineral concentration as bad as mine? My concentrations are just a point or two above the 30% limit. If others have far better, I have a disadvantage, and well, damn it. If not, oh well.
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Tue, 22 April 2008 23:56 |
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djf01 | | Crewman 3rd Class | Messages: 8
Registered: February 2008 Location: Goulburn, Australia | |
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I'd like to ask Micha: how did you create this universe?
I'm a newbie so my experience is obviously limited, but as I understand it, HW concentrations are random, like every other planet, with a Normal (Bell curve) type distribution (I think it's probably Passion for the statisticians reading) with a mean around 50 or 60. For HWs, there is a lifetime minimum concentration of 30. That's what's happened in my testbeds. With AccBBs on, the final mineral concentration is multiplied by 1.2 (not sure if that's for HWs only, or all planets). I think "Beginner: Maximum Minerals" has a similar impact, and I'm reasonably sure that applies to all worlds, not just HWs.
That's consistent with what most commentators have written here and on the newsgroup. I stopped checking when I read a piece inferring this by no less than Jason Cawley.
There are Universe Generation tools that can be used to ensure universes start within certain parameters, including mineral concentrations ranges.
However it is also possible to patch your stars!.exe so that the multiple selecting "Beginner: Maximum Minerals" gives you can be adjusted, either up or down.
Anyway, I think we'd all benefit from knowing how Micha did it so we can create a sensible testbed(s).
One more thing: I think low mineral concentrations is probably a really good thing for the theme of this game!
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 03:00 |
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jimroberts | | Petty Officer 2nd Class | Messages: 52
Registered: March 2008 Location: Germany | |
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Quote: | ... my experience is obviously limited, but as I understand it, HW concentrations are random, like every other planet ...
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All our HWs start with the same concentrations and starting minerals, except that during race design you can spend points to improve them: click the help button on page 1 of the race wizard for more information. In particular, 3 points gets you an improvement of 1% in the concentration which would have been poorest. Nobody here is saying that he wants to stay with what we have because he has high concentrations, though he may be thinking, "What a good thing that I don't want to build a lot of factories.".
I don't know how Micha generated, but I sent him a def file and he said it would be useful. This is it:Quote: | Pebbles in the sky
3 2 3
0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10
...
1 30
1 25 5
1 9000
1 30
1 150
1 300
1 130
4 100
pebbles.xy
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Race file names go in place of the elipsis. You can read about this in the Stars! help under Setup/Hosting, Multi-Player Setup, Creating a Universe from the Command Line.
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 03:30 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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djf01 wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 05:56 | However it is also possible to patch your stars!.exe so that the multiple selecting "Beginner: Maximum Minerals" gives you can be adjusted, either up or down.
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Yeah, there is a version that reduces all mineral concentrations to 1. PricklyPea made it when I toyed with the idea of a
"Expert: Minimum Minerals" game, that would be the oppostie of the BMM setting, and happens by selecting BMM during game setup.
mch
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 03:35 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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jimroberts wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:00 |
Quote: | ... my experience is obviously limited, but as I understand it, HW concentrations are random, like every other planet ...
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All our HWs start with the same concentrations and starting minerals, except that during race design you can spend points to improve them: click the help button on page 1 of the race wizard for more information. In particular, 3 points gets you an improvement of 1% in the concentration which would have been poorest. Nobody here is saying that he wants to stay with what we have because he has high concentrations, though he may be thinking, "What a good thing that I don't want to build a lot of factories.".
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Actually you get 3/4 of the leftoverpoints spend in the lowest concentration, and 1/4 in *both* of the others. An example, starting with 40i/35b/50g and spending 48 leftover points would give you: 40+12/35+36/50+12 = 52/71/62. Starting with all concentrations the same, 30 in this universe iron gets the 3/4.
Quote: | I don't know how Micha generated, but I sent him a def file and he said it would be useful. This is it:Quote: | Pebbles in the sky
3 2 3
0 0 0 0 0 0 0
10
...
1 30
1 25 5
1 9000
1 30
1 150
1 300
1 130
4 100
pebbles.xy
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Race file names go in place of the elipsis. You can read about this in the Stars! help under Setup/Hosting, Multi-Player Setup, Creating a Universe from the Command Line.
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And that's what I used. Except that I added a seed number (4th number on the second line). Don't worry the host (nor any of you now it is public) can *not* recreate the universe and pre-scan it.
mch
{Edit: changed to "can *not* recreate" }
[Updated on: Wed, 23 April 2008 05:36] Report message to a moderator
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 05:21 |
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jimroberts | | Petty Officer 2nd Class | Messages: 52
Registered: March 2008 Location: Germany | |
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Micha wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:35 |
And that's what I used. Except that I added a seed number (4th number on the second line). Don't worry the host (nor any of you now it is public) can recreate the universe and pre-scan it.
mch
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You are saying that we can't recreate and prescan, I hope. Though if you were to make the seed public, we could recreate and prescan, right?
I didn't know about the 3/4 rule for concentrations, just believed the race wizard help. My version is dated 1998. Is there a newer one?
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 05:30 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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jimroberts wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 11:21 |
Micha wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 09:35 |
And that's what I used. Except that I added a seed number (4th number on the second line). Don't worry the host (nor any of you now it is public) can recreate the universe and pre-scan it.
mch
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You are saying that we can't recreate and prescan, I hope. Though if you were to make the seed public, we could recreate and prescan, right?
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DOH! Right! "Can NOT recreate ..." I'll change that in my post.
No, even if I make the seed number public you won't. It's related to the machine, at least I remember making a seed for someone else and at his machine he got different results ...
Quote: | I didn't know about the 3/4 rule for concentrations, just believed the race wizard help. My version is dated 1998. Is there a newer one?
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Rule #1 : don't believe the help file.
Hm, not sure which is the last one, can't check till I'm at home. But I believe that it is there incorrect as well.
mch
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 07:26 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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Micha wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 11:30 |
Quote: | I didn't know about the 3/4 rule for concentrations, just believed the race wizard help. My version is dated 1998. Is there a newer one?
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Rule #1 : don't believe the help file.
Hm, not sure which is the last one, can't check till I'm at home. But I believe that it is there incorrect as well.
mch
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Rule #0 : Thou shalt doubt everything that's not been testbedded, if possible by thyself.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 10:31 |
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djf01 | | Crewman 3rd Class | Messages: 8
Registered: February 2008 Location: Goulburn, Australia | |
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Well, I don't think Micha is going to reveal how he created a universe where all the HWs have <30 base mineral concentrations. I haven't been able to re-produce it (the concentrations, not the universe). I presume he's used methods us Newbies probably shouldn't know about.
I would like to know if *all* worlds are going to be similarly barren, or if it's just HWs?
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 10:48 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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djf01 wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:31 | Well, I don't think Micha is going to reveal how he created a universe where all the HWs have <30 base mineral concentrations. I haven't been able to re-produce it (the concentrations, not the universe). I presume he's used methods us Newbies probably shouldn't know about.
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HWs don't start with below 30 concentrations. And I didn't do anything special. I took the .def file, genned the universe and that was it.
Quote: | I would like to know if *all* worlds are going to be similarly barren, or if it's just HWs?
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Only HWs. Though I can't remember if AccBBs has an influence on non-HW concentrations as well ...
mch
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 13:24 |
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m.a@stars | | Commander | Messages: 2765
Registered: October 2004 Location: Third star to the left | |
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djf01 wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:31 | Well, I don't think Micha is going to reveal how he created a universe where all the HWs have <30 base mineral concentrations. I haven't been able to re-produce it (the concentrations, not the universe). I presume he's used methods us Newbies probably shouldn't know about.
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Luck, I presume. I've certainly seen many games and testbeds where one or more minconcs were <30, though all 3 being <30 is not that common.
Keep trying testbeds. You should be able to run into a low minconc HW easily enough.
Quote: | I would like to know if *all* worlds are going to be similarly barren, or if it's just HWs?
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Minconcs for the rest of the universe should be wholly random, and unrelated to the HW.
So many Stars, so few Missiles!
In space no one can hear you scheme! Report message to a moderator
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 13:43 |
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jimroberts | | Petty Officer 2nd Class | Messages: 52
Registered: March 2008 Location: Germany | |
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djf01 wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:31 | Well, I don't think Micha is going to reveal how he created a universe where all the HWs have <30 base mineral concentrations. I haven't been able to re-produce it (the concentrations, not the universe).
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I have the impression that if you choose "Expert" for the difficulty level of your test, using the ordinary new game dialog, you have a good chance of rather low HW concentrations. All three so low is unusual, but I suppose it's just an extreme of the probability distribution. Micha says he just used the def file, and he had no reason to do anything else: he doesn't hate us, we're just unlucky (except for those with races which work well with low concentrations). Also, as he and others said, with AccBBS they don't come quite so bad.
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Wed, 23 April 2008 18:41 |
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djf01 | | Crewman 3rd Class | Messages: 8
Registered: February 2008 Location: Goulburn, Australia | |
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I finally understand how this works. I must apologise to everyone, and especially Micha, for effectively asking the same dumb question so many times.
But I *can* say:
1) From the testing I did, the likelihood of all 3 being low is ~4%
2) Level of difficulty has nothing to do with it.
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Thu, 24 April 2008 02:46 |
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Micha | | | Messages: 2342
Registered: November 2002 Location: Belgium GMT +1 | |
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djf01 wrote on Thu, 24 April 2008 00:41 | I finally understand how this works. I must apologise to everyone, and especially Micha, for effectively asking the same dumb question so many times.
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About time you did! The game is up, now PLAY!
http://starsautohost.org/games/pebbles.htm
mch
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Re: Ten-player, diplomatic, large, dense, distant, standard (non-AccBBS), unrestricted |
Thu, 24 April 2008 12:50 |
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djf01 wrote on Wed, 23 April 2008 16:41 |
1) From the testing I did, the likelihood of all 3 being low is ~4%
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Yes, your testing has proved slightly high in fact...
There is a 30% chance of one MC being 30 because homeworlds are rewritten to ensure that they always have 30% MC's on gen.
So, by extension, 3 MCs at 30% is only an occurrence in 2.7% of the gens (.3^3.) Looking at this from a slightly different perspective you could say that Micha has provided you with a universe which is relatively rare... occurring less than 3% of the time, or, conversely in the top 97 percentile
Have fun guys...
I'll close this topic.
dj.
[Updated on: Thu, 24 April 2008 12:51] Report message to a moderator
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