Shortly after this we had a disastrous turn. Autohost had frozen and Earth didn�t upload his turn.
When it unfroze the turn generated � this was the final straw for the Earth player who felt the turn should have been rolled back. The game host decided otherwise, this decision caused the Earth player to leave the game (if this was right or wrong I don�t care � this is a game story not a postmortum).

So we were needing a replacement and things looked bad.

**** This next paragraph may not have happened - I have some emails where we are worrried about Yourba and some where a different planet (a minor one we didnt care about) is mentioned *****
In the West Yourba�s orbit had been taken (fortunately the ships were elsewhere and had not been destroyed) but the attacking force had not brought bombers (or our base had killed them � we were also now using BattleBoard Manipulation but less effectively due to having less players).
****End of bit I am unsure of****

In the south west the Ipsha fleet had clashed with the IA fleet as per our plans (the fleets had been fencing for a few turns and assembling reinforcements on both sides). Sadly the Earth fleet without orders had not joined the fight. The Ipsha fleet was destroyed with some losses on the IA side but the remaining fleet looked easily capable of killing the Earth fleet (If the fleets had joined we thought they would have won). Also the weak force I still had in the area had attacked a world that had surprisingly a fully armed Jug base � the previous turn it had been a dock � no Vorlons survived.
This meant that Silver and Cass were undefendable as we would have to retreat to get reinforcements.
Also the IA had passed us in Energy and had lobbed a large W13 packet at an Earth world. The world had no defences and neither did most of the Earth worlds.

I took direct control of the Earthlings while we searched for a suitable replacement. The first thing I did was change all the build queues to the traditional fac/mine/terraform settings (Earth and I had argued long and hard about his unusual build queues � annoyingly when I had testbedded to prove my point for a number of worlds his weird queues out performed mine).

Smaller border worlds were set to mines as minerals were short across his Empire � and where any minerals existed border planets were set to make at least some defences. The Earth fleet at Silver was set to retreat. Finally I equipped all Earth civilians with tin hats as a final defence against packets .

I also emailed round a first draft of a Grand Plan for comment.

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[Updated on: Sun, 14 October 2007 14:31]

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gwellman wrote on Mon, 15 October 2007 03:04

Could you describe these usual queues? This could be useful information for other games.

Basically, for a race with cheap terra and expensive mines it makes sense to terraform 1st (and improve pop growth) and build the mines later. That works slightly better than the "classic" Q in most places, except for high-Germ planets.

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Thanks, yeah Soobie just explained it in an email. A race designed for serial colonization. I wouldn't have expected that, but it's not crazy given the scenario. Nobody understands the GR though

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The Grand Plan was never designed as such. It just happened...

The Earthlings had a rough time in this rowdy galaxy, as if their internal problems weren't bad enough.

It all started nicely enough. Almost the 1st thing Earthling astronomers spotted out there was a Vorlon ambassadorial vessel orbiting their Homeworld.

The Elder offer was simple: help us and we'll help you. Many of the more "Independent" races seemed to have trouble with the concept of mutual support, but the Earthlings just refueled the alien envoy and granted the Vorlons free passage and colonization in their space in exchange for future goodies.

And not a moment too soon. The very 1st thing Earthling colonists found was a Drakh invasion horde which exterminated them all without warning.

Earthling High Command wasn't ready for war. It nevertheless dispatched what troopships could be found to deal with the intruders, even if it meant hurting the development of the whole race.

At about the same time we encountered two more alien races: the Llort, who seemed friendly, and the Shadows, who seemed not. An agreement of sorts was reached with the Llort, whereas the mighty Shadows proved unfathomable, much to the chagrin of certain shadowy elements among the ruling elite.

The Drakh onslaught was eventually halted, and even to some extent reversed. The Vorlons started supplying much-needed tech, and the Earthlings started diplomatic contacts with our mutual neighbour the Ipsha.

It was then that we found what the Llort had been up to while we fought for our lives. Under the umbrella of a broadly defined NAP, and while the Drakh conflict kept our whole development frozen, the industrious Llort had been busy colonizing every single planet in the SW corner, up to and including all worlds in our mutual border.

Things were starting to shape up: the Ipsha seemed to trust the Vorlons and their mutual neighbour the Hyak. Tech and intel and promises of help had started flowing around. On the other hand, the Llort and their northern neighbours the Gaim were having trouble helping the Earthlings against the Drakh, or even keeping their own invading forces out of Earthling space.

To top it all, the Martians, whom the Vorlon believed Shadow-touched, came out of the blue and sent a declaration of war against the Earthlings.

Things would only get worse...

News reached our beleaguered little corner of the sudden Martian attack against the Gaim. Most coincidentally, they realized they *really* wanted to be friends with the Earthlings, whom they seemed to believe an official channel to the Vorlons, which at the time were just friendly partners.

Thus, another entente was reached: neither Gaim nor Llort would help the Drakh IF once the Drakh were defeated they were allowed to take half of Drakh space. Not a bad deal in exchange of their doing nothing, by all means.

But they needed Earthling tech too, and for that we wanted to be paid. Which seemed to confuse them to some extent, despite their impassioned urgings for the Earthlings to join the nascent "Independent" Alliance as an equal.

It was then that the bigger picture imposed itself upon all of us, as the Vorlons realized we were being duped.

The Vorlons had given the Earthlings the means to gather immense amounts of info about the whole galaxy. But we were too busy unraveling our own problems, not the least of which was that we seemed to have become neatly boxed in by our still friendly neighbors the Llort and the Gaim.

Meanwhile our more advanced (and paranoid) Elder friends had watched the IA coalescing itself under the radar and trying to get Elder goodies thru indirect channels, while at the same time harassing those same channels to the extent of their powers.

But neither Drakh nor Narn were a part of the IA, or where they? We firmly believed not, but the answer turned out to fatally be yes.

The Llort and the Gaim were including the Drakh in their tech trading, as spotted by our outlying sentries, and that meant any tech the Earthlings gave to them would also go to our enemies. The Vorlon suspected the same was happening with the Pak, the Spoo and the Shadows themselves, despite their being theoretically at war. And the Spoo were contesting Narn space with the Hyak while at the same time the Pak, friends with the Hyak, were passing Vorlon tech to the Spoo.

Not a promising state of affairs...

Thus the Vorlon declined to help the IA until it was clear what the IA was doing. And what the IA was doing was helping our enemies, the Drakh and the Narn. And the Shadows too, since it was unlikely that Shadow tech was being given for free to their recent enemies, and Shadow vessels were having no trouble reaching our space despite our patrolling all Gates still undestroyed.

We had thus a few unsavory choices before us:

Attempt an early attack on the Shadow HW, risking our whole mid-term efforts in one shot and allowing the IA to carry out their plans unmolested, whatever those plans were.

Attempt to talk the IA away from what we believed was the contrary of what they should be doing.

Deal with the IA blow by blow, until they realized we owed them nothing and wouldn't allow them to do as they pleased w/out a fight.

[Updated on: Mon, 15 October 2007 10:17]

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gwellman wrote on Mon, 15 October 2007 09:22

Thanks, yeah Soobie just explained it in an email. A race designed for serial colonization. I wouldn't have expected that, but it's not crazy given the scenario. Nobody understands the GR though

An unfortunate leftover of too many (and yet not enough) testbeds, I'm afraid. The Earthlings were engineered thinking of powerful partners, but seemingly not well engineered enough.

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And then the IA flatly refused us any kind of free passage towards the Shadow Homeworld. We would have neither safe Gating, nor our own planetary outposts, nor safe travel thru IA minefields, nor (was assumed) their keeping our moves a secret from the Shadows themselves.

Not without a fight, at least.

Time was against us, with the IA having reached a peace with the Shadows and holding more than 50% of all space (resources, minerals) to themselves, and poised to take even more while we stagnated.

Thus, option #1 had to be scratched, to the relief of those among us who believed it was too risky.

Option #2 was still open, barely, or so we believed, even if our scouts and civilian ships were being chased and shot down all over the border and even inside our own space, our minefields swept, and every border world threatened by our erstwhile IA friends.

If we couldn't make the IA see that their best option was to kill the Shadows by themselves (with Vorlon help, oh the Irony) while the Vorlons were too far (and too weak) to do it 1st, that only left one door open.

Option #3 was the door to Hell...

It meant the end of all hope for peace. It also meant we would have to win the hard way.

If the IA wanted to fight us, we needed to oblige.

The Spoo needed to be prevented from gobbling up all Narn space, even if it meant the Hyak couldn't do all the research / development they wanted.

The Llort squatters needed to be dislodged from the SW corner, far from the wormhole which granted them access to Ipsha space, and chased away from the Gate outposts of Pisces and Kludge, which gave our enemies access to Earthling and Drakh core space, respectively.

A safe path needed to be blazed in the center of the galaxy thru the Pak, and that meant our sleeping giant the Ipsha would have to enter the fray.

It was a hard and risky proposition. It was slow starting and not without setbacks, for the enemy was smart and resourceful and was receiving covert help from the Shadows themselves. It was also our only hope to win (or at least to prevent the all-encompassing IA to win)

And the race who got hit the hardest was of course the besieged Earthlings, up to the point of suffering a blessedly short-lived space-time paradox where our own teammates the Vorlons destroyed our fleets instead of our enemies'.

A whole third of Earthling populations had already been lost in the war. The rest were too busy cranking out ships for defending themselves to pay much attention to nonessentials such as economy or environment. The recently taken Drakh Homeworld was lost to a surprise attack from the Gaim pirates.

Plans were crafted for the full evacuation of the Earthling Homeworld, with a suggestion of taking over the relatively underexploited Ipsha Homeworld. Fleets of refugees were dispatched to Ipsha-controlled space, partly to help resettling the many "liberated" worlds the Ipsha had no time to take for themselves.

But, amid the carnage, several very promising trends started to show:

The Spoo and the Pak were sending all they could against the Hyak and the Ipsha, not quite succeeding in slowing their northwards push.

The Gaim and the Llort had started to send all they could against the Earthlings and the modest fleets of the VA in the SW, eventually grinding our advances there to a halt.

The Vorlon advanced labs and research centers were piling up the new technologies faster than could be assimilated or even deployed in the field w/out becoming instantly obsolete.

Last but not least, the Ipsha had the run of the center of the galaxy, thus enabling the renewed hope of a coup against our *real* enemies the Shadows.

And thus the Grandest Plan was born...

Lack of news from the Shadows could mean a couple things:

They were somehow weaker than we thought, but for some unfathomable reason the stronger IA were keeping them alive.

They weren't weak, but instead were readying their own coup against the Vorlons.

They were waiting for the victor of the IA-VA conflict to emerge, to then deal with one weakened enemy and not two.

Thought of #1 was quickly squashed under the belief that the IA knew what they were doing. That left the dangerous option #2, or the most likely option #3, where the IA had all the chances of becoming the last challenger of Shadow rule.

If we wanted to win before the IA got too strong, or the Shadows themselves unleashed their sneak attack, we would need a lot of luck and no small effort:

The Gates we needed for a fast trip to Shadow space needed to be kept open, even if the ones leading to our own holdings were slated for destruction at the 1st sign of trouble.

We needed to prepare for and carry out the biggest / fastest fleet buildup yet to be seen in the galaxy, something we were getting practiced with, but which seemed impossible to keep secret from either IA or Shadows.

The IA must be kept distracted and facing the wrong border at all costs, particularly if the Gates proved to be blocked and we needed to travel the slow way thru the center of the galaxy.

[Updated on: Tue, 16 October 2007 07:18]

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Vorlon High Command made it very clear that, to defeat the Shadows, the Lightbringers needed to make some painful sacrifices.

The Ipsha would need to allow their nice progress northwards slowed or even halted, lest it drew too much attention.

The Hyak would need to stop sending reinforcements to their forces in Narn space despite facing increasing opposition.

The Earthlings would receive what help was already built and flying, what tech was being shared at the moment, and not a scrap more, come what may.

Nothing short of the full collapse of the Western border to Vorlon core space, jointly held by Ipsha and Earthlings, would force the VA to send any more reinforcements Westwards.

It was assumed the Hyak had more than enough available space to trade for time should the IA press upon their quickly obsolescing forces.

The Ipsha empire had to be wholly free from other commitments to build the bulk of the "Victory" fleet.

It was a tall order to meet for the Earthlings. Many higher-ups dissented loudly at the prospect of watching our Team's victory from our graves, after all our hard toils. Yet daredevils across all levels of our society welcomed the chance of dealing the ultimate blow to our ruthless attackers.

Would the Earthlings hold? Would the IA bite? Would our ruse succeed?

Yes we held, in the face of impossible challenges, and no small part of our ultimate success is owed to the efforts of Admiral Soobie. And yes they bit, hook, line and sinker, in the face of all better judgement...

And the rest, as they say, is history.

[Updated on: Mon, 15 October 2007 10:41]

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Earthling scientists working at the much-sought-after Theory of Everything believe they have found an explanation for the Centauri misfortune in their early years.

It would seem that the packet the Centauri launched against a Gate got actually shifted into hyperspace, eventually suffering a time-space paradox which landed it back into realspace a number of years before its launch and directed towards one of the few Centauri planets then inhabited.

Bad luck, guys.

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So my Homeworld seemed safe, no gates closer than 8 years travel existed, minefield extended for 4 years travel as did scanners capable of seeing a 98% cloaked fleet. Time to focus on our attack.
Most of the �Potential Victory� fleet had been sat at Sherpa for a couple of turns swapping owners and waiting for the gate at Arnold to become free.
On the threats front the large fleet of 200 assorted Battleships that the Hyak had spotted had retreated further into IA space (more on this soon) the Yoruba standoff was holding and with the 50 Battleships from Ipsha it looked like Earth would be able to stop the Western assaults and maybe even press forwards.

So the big worry now was our attack failing.

The first barrier was actually getting to Arnold � the Gate wasn�t yet up, the Gate Network promised it would be up next turn but it was possible that the IA/SA could shoot it down before we could gate in. On this front one of the Wormholes had recently moved one end to near Arnold (about 1 year of travel on the way to Omega � the Shadow Homeworld) the other end was located close to the big IA fleet. It was conceivable that the IA could jump through the wormhole and then kill the gate next turn before we arrived � similarly if the Gate was built anyone could gate in a small force and take down the gate (not a disaster but it would prevent us bringing through the rest of our bombers which were a year behind the Fleet).

An alternative was the possibility of a Gate at Cetus the Ipsha had sneaked in some minerals and the Gate network was duly building a gate. Cetus was just 2 years travel from the Shadow Homeworld. Sadly the Shadow had destroyed the gate split seconds after it was built. Long term if the Shadows manage to wipe out our bombers we could use Cetus to gate in replacements.

The Orgy part of the attack fleet is 2 turns from Arnold and only lightly armed � to support this I send my few Radiant Lights that are already at Arnold to meet them. This turns out to be a great idea as the Radiant Lights tear through the small cloaked force that intercepts the Orgy.

The gate opens and a large portion of our force arrives at Arnold including the rest of my Radiant lights. Nothing has come through the Wormhole. The rest of our fleet will arrive next turn � total force 40 Radiant Lights, 350 Battleships and a number of ARM BBs and assorted older ships � plus about 3000chaff.

Six
We are now 6 years away from arrival at the Shadow homeworld (its 5 years travel but we are waiting 1 year for some ships).
This turn my Radiant Lights head towards the Shadow Homeworld � as well as having a huge initiative they make excellent sweepers (and there are lots of mines in the way). The Ipsha has both small fleets of older ships already a year or 2 towards the Shadow world and a small number of heavily cloaked spy galleons with a gatling already in place to clear fields.

My Orgy arrives at Arnold.

Five
Our main Fleet leaves Arnold this turn and we have 3 concerns about what the Enemy will do.
A) Using the Wormhole
B) Gating to Arnold
C) Gating to Cetus

The wormhole is not such a threat � it has drifted so that it is now slightly further away from Omega than Arnold is. It would mean the force got through with no damage but they couldn�t link up with any other fleets.

Gating to Arnold would effectively cut off our retreat, it would have the immediate advantage to the IA of wiping out a small number of bombers that will be arriving there this turn (we cant wait for them). It would also turn it into a race for the Shadow Homeworld, any delay for our fleet would mean we were caught as they would be just 1 year behind us.

Of interest is the fact that our approach to the Shadow Homeworld was not entirely direct (5 years direct travel would be 4 at W9 and 1 at W8) so that we just missed the biggest concentration of mines (takes 5 years at W9). So if the IA was willing to take the losses of exploding engines they could catch us.

Gating to Cetus is effectively the biggest worry. Cetus is just 2 years from the Shadow Homeworld so if they get a gate built at Cetus then we have to fight them or retreat.
Our decisions were � our big fleet would advance, the sweepers would keep sweeping.

Four
The Hyak spray chaff at a large number of IA worlds hoping to find a Gate.
They do find a Gate at Doghouse (in the East) and also a huge IA fleet!!! Although of older design and made up of several designs there are 660 BBs in the fleet. Another fleet is found at a gate in the west � only 200-300 BBs in this one. Back of an envelope calculations show that we would defeat the 660 fleet with reasonable losses but if the 2 fleets merge then we would be lucky to have 100 ships left at the end of a battle. Add in some Shadow ships and this has suddenly become a battle we want to avoid.

If they manage to gate to Cetus then they would get to the Shadow world either before us or when we did � This being the case we may not be able to attack.

I propose the following alternative if their fleet gets to Cetus - taking the Shadow world of Gangtok (2 years travel south of the Homeworld). It would give us somewhere to request a gate or have a forward base. If they came after us we could retreat towards our reinforcements. If they left the Shadow homeworld we could advance again.

Our decisions were � our big fleet would advance, the sweepers would keep sweeping. Annoyingly I had to leave my chaff behind (just a couple of 100) because they were eating up all my fuel.

Our missiles ships would return to Arnold to destroy the gate (so we didn�t end up being chased by that huge fleet).
Also the Ipsha and Hyak had a few ships making their way to Arnold via gates � these are diverted to Doghouse in an attempt to wipe out the gate there � thus preventing their fleet from leaving.

Three � Yahoo � Won
No gate appeared at Cetus, also we hit both Arnold and Doghouse taking down both gates. The huge Doghouse fleet is now effectively useless unless they build a gate at Doghouse and Cetus this turn and the fleet leaps through. If Cetus builds a gate we will still have a fight on our hands from the other fleet but we should win.
The only real worry now is whatever the Shadows have at their homeworld � but we are feeling confident.

Shortly after this we get a round of Emails conceding the game.
The mighty Vorlon Alliance is Victorious!

I really enjoyed this game � there were many good players and it was a pleasure playing against you. Special thanks of course go to the Light Bringers � you were a great team.
Finally thanks to the Host � Steve Patrick

I plan to host a Bab5 version 3 at some point in the future (with Steve�s permission) he won the original and so hosted the second, so as I won the second I should host the third. There will be a few changes to make the Shadows a bit stronger and to give the IA a chance to avoid being caught in the middle so much.

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Enlightening!

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It's no use. Some ppl will just cling to their delusions despite all evidence to the contrary.

Well, at least they tried. Better luck next time!

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Hi All � I played the CA Hyak as part of VA.

I should have posted earlier. I did not know everyone was posting here. The story of this game has already been fairly told here. I have enjoyed reading their accounts.

I will only add a few points:

1. The members of both the IA and SA are to be applauded for playing to the end. It was clear very early on that the VA having the only CA (w TT) in the universe were going to win barring a successful �Hail Mary� by either the IA or SA, or if we played really badly. This provided VA with a major psychological advantage that can not be underestimated.

2. The Battleboard Starting Positions (BSP) was really a surprise for me and Joseph, and we suffered for it until we knew how to deal with it. Besides trying to re-adjust the starting locations, a solution was to build specialized chaff that were more attractive then the bombers for the starbase to preferentially target (Micha, you should added this solution to the BSP note). This is how the Hyak was able to capture the Narn HW and other colonies later on.

3. The IA and SA did have some advantages. The VA missed most of the MTs. The IA and SA had the Engima Engine for which they used to get their �lighter� w14 BBs to handle our heavier w16 BBs. I had to build some stop-gap light w20 BBs to stop them. We make a mistake in designing the w16 hv Blaster BBs in not using the lighter RamScoops that the Hyak and Ispha had, but Vorlons did not have. We/I thought we could group the w16 BBs later with the same engines (which did not happen) to attack SA HW.

4. A word on tactics. I follow the rule that you should use what you have not what you would like to have. Being at a battle with not so perfect ships is much better then missing the battle for perfect ships. For this reason, I did not vote for researching en15 to get mass drivers.

5. Everyone should learn to play Stars with only HE races. I have become a better player from this game. Playing IT or using gates hides the logistical nature of this war game. You need to plan several turns ahead of what you want to do in order to be truly successful. I (and perhaps others) did not learn this very well until this game as it was too easy to mitigate one�s lack of foresight using the gates.

6. From this game, I learned a great deal about Starbase and ship design, and just as importantly, how to use those designs with selected orders to take best advantage of the designs. It was very inspirational especially the chicken order.

7. A final word about the IA �Hail Mary�. We were on the look out for such a �Hail Mary�, this was the only way for IA or SA to win. When the pressure from the hordes of IA ships dropped significantly, we knew something was up: taking down gates near the Vorlon HW was a given. Spraying IA/SA space with chaff (sent via our few remaining gates) to find those assembly points was one of my inspirations - even if I do say so myself

Feel free to contact me at dk20rl at gmail dot com if you have any questions.

Robert

[Updated on: Wed, 25 June 2008 17:06]

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Orange wrote on Wed, 25 June 2008 00:50

Hi All � I played the CA Hyak as part of VA. I should have posted earlier. I did not know everyone was posting here. The story of this game has already been fairly told here.

We were wondering where the Hyak chronicles had disappeared.

Quote:

Playing IT or using gates hides the logistical nature of this war game. You need to plan several turns ahead of what you want to do in order to be truly successful. I (and perhaps others) did not learn this very well until this game as it was too easy to mitigate one�s lack of foresight using the gates.

That and playing toy universes where everything is just one gating away. Playing Huge or stretched universes (where there's also too much territory for a single "push" to succeed) needs good logistics planning too.

Quote:

I learned a great deal about Starbase and ship design, and just as importantly, how to use those designs with selected orders to take best advantage of the designs.

And I learned from you.

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[Updated on: Wed, 25 June 2008 17:08]

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Orange wrote on Wed, 25 June 2008 22:09

I want to add here that I also disagreed with Joseph on some of his strategies and tactics. However, as the Vorlon, those choices were his to make and his decisions had to be respected. There was too much internal dissension.

Indeed. And that was what made the game actually ressemble the original Babylon 5 universe.

Quote:

Thus, this part of Joseph's strategy of picking 3 of 5 did not make sense, because he would have made a stronger enemy and security threat if he did not pick us. The Vorlons were stuck with the Ipsha and Hyak due to our position, but the third minion was at his discretion. I would of tried for a Northern race i.e. the Pak to be closer to the SA, but Joseph was more conservative.

Perhaps the Vorlon tried to woo the Pak to the Light side but were refused...

Quote:

The West is another story which should be told by others. The Earthling did badly in the West and asked for help, but we could not commit to a Western invasion without delaying our main goal of getting to the SA HW and we did not.

The IA was stopped in the West too. Not by the strongest VA members, but by the weakest.

The Earthlings, under attack from turn 6, did not enjoy the 30+ years of peaceful expansion that others had. They were consistently denied the techs they badly needed. They also got less help from their CA teammate than their enemies the Pak. And they had to fight two of the strongest IA races under permanent BSP handicap.

I kid you not, they should have performed better, but things could have turned out much much worse.

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m.a@stars wrote on Thu, 26 June 2008 04:51

Perhaps the Vorlon tried to woo the Pak to the Light side but were refused...

The Spoo (Altruist), Pak (Micha), Gaim (Skaffern) & Llort (me) formed the core IA over 10 years before alliances were announced. We had assumed that the Ipsha & Hyak were locked in but a little later the Gaim & Llort tried to enlist the Earthlings (as well as the Martians & the Dilgar which ended up in the VA & others) since we figured that the result was already set in concrete unless we were able to reduce the available pool of potential VA (& SA) allies to the point that they could not find 3 strong ones. Unfortunately we were unable to recruit the races we needed & we ended up with only the original core + one obliterated race (Drakh) - even the Minbari & Narn ended up members of the IA in name only since both refused to officially join & operated independantly.

Quote:

The Earthlings, under attack from turn 6, did not enjoy the 30+ years of peaceful expansion that others had. They were consistently denied the techs they badly needed. They also got less help from their CA teammate than their enemies the Pak. And they had to fight two of the strongest IA races under permanent BSP handicap. I kid you not, they should have performed better, but things could have turned out much much worse.

I'm sure that you don't really believe that

The 2 strong IA members (Gaim & Llort) were always behind in technology & were constantly fighting off the Vorlons in the early period & the Ipsha later on.

I strongly believe that the Gaim were brilliant & that the Llort alterego delivered his best performance ever in Stars (& that includes 3 wins & a 2nd in his only other 4 games).

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AlexTheGreat wrote on Thu, 26 June 2008 17:10

The Spoo (Altruist), Pak (Micha), Gaim (Skaffern) & Llort (me) formed the core IA over 10 years before alliances were announced.

That could explain why the Vorlons were left with little choice.

Quote:

a little later the Gaim & Llort tried to enlist the Earthlings (as well as the Martians & the Dilgar which ended up in the VA & others) since we figured that the result was already set in concrete unless we were able to reduce the available pool of potential VA (& SA) allies to the point that they could not find 3 strong ones. Unfortunately we were unable to recruit the races we needed & we ended up with only the original core + one obliterated race (Drakh)

Had your offer been even slightly better than nothing, you could have enlisted the Earthlings. As it was, I was not going to become the scorched battlefield between the IA and the VA when the Vorlon had already offered me a fair chance at winning.

Ironically, I became just that. Except that I ended in the winning side.

Quote:

I'm sure that you don't really believe that

Don't believe what? That Gaim & Llort were two of the stronger (or even the strongest) IA races? They built a lot of ships, and assembled several strong fleets, a feat only the Spoomum managed elsewhere.

Or perhaps they weren't actually attacking the Earthlings and using BSP tricks to great effect from battle 1?

Quote:

The 2 strong IA members (Gaim & Llort) were always behind in technology

Yeah, by as much as 1 or 2 turns behind, for all really important techs (CCs, Jihads, BBs)

Quote:

& were constantly fighting off the Vorlons in the early period & the Ipsha later on.

Surely you don't mean the Vorlon fleet that got mostly destroyed by Drakh mines, or the one that got decimated shortly after conquering the Drakh HW?

And yes, the Ipsha did commit some ships to the East. A fraction of what they commited elsewhere. Perhaps you should compare the meaning of "constantly" with the Narn and the Pak, who also had the Hyak to worry about.

Quote:

I strongly believe that the Gaim were brilliant & that the Llort alterego delivered his best performance ever in Stars (& that includes 3 wins & a 2nd in his only other 4 games).

Brilliant, and brave too. I only wish I could have presented a better challenge to them...

[Updated on: Thu, 26 June 2008 12:22]

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